Andreja owner still seeking the perfect wave of crema

[johney5]

Ive had my machine for almost 2 months now. I've tried a zillion different kinds of beans and I still cannot get a monster thick crema. I was down in the South of Italy last weekend, and tried about ten cafes in the little Ndrangeta village I call home away from home. Nobody tamps, and with no effort the coffee flows thick like blood. Most of the cafes down there are using Sante Croce beans, or Illy. My favorite cafe 'Stratti' has an old machine that looks like the mother of my Andreja...probably an old quick mill machine. And with ease, and what appears to be no Barista skill they pull great shot after shot.

Tech details: I'm using about 8 grams of coffee, with a pretty fine espresso grind. I tamp pretty well. I've tried so many grinds, volumes and I just cannot get a lot of Crema. I keep thinking it's the machine...but I know it's not. I always do a prepull now, that seems to help alot. Anyone have a little trick up their sleeve I'm missing here?

[HB]

When I hear low crema, my first thought is stale coffee. You might also try using a double basket and bottomless portafilter until you confirm your technique. Even though many enjoy oogling bulging cones of crema, it isn't difficult to produce espressos with ample crema given fresh coffee, a good grinder, and a reasonably forgiving espresso machine.

By the way, what do you mean "pre-pull"? Preinfusing by raising the lever halfway? That shouldn't be necessary, the E61 already has an expansion chamber (see Effect of preinfusion time - what is best - thoughts? for more opinions on the value of extended preinfusion).

[bainesy]

Hi Johney5 - I was about to ask what grinder you're using, but thought I'd check your previous posts, where you say it's a Kitchenaid (and that you'd been told it wasn't really up to grinding for espresso). Have you changed your grinder yet? You can be absolutely sure those Italians are using something commercial-grade like a Mazzer/Rossi/Brasilia etc. And don't assume that the ease with which they do their job implies "no barista skill" - as in all walks of life, the people who make difficult things look easy are normally the experts (especially if they're pulling shot after shot after shot, day after day)

You're still trying to pull single shots I see - most people find them difficult to master, and the commoner style among home baristas is, if anything, overdosing (c 18g in a double basket).

Rather than trying "zillions" of different beans it might be an idea to settle on one tried-and-tested quality espresso blend and practise with that until you get good results (if you want I can recommend UK suppliers who I'm sure would ship at no great cost to France).

I assumed you meant by "pre-pull" the cooling flush, but I may be wrong?

Hope that helps.
Bainesy

[another_jim]

The single basket that comes with the E61 style machines is best off loaded with 10 to 12 grams of coffee, rather than 8. There should be enough of a layer above the narrow section so one can tamp properly. If you do want to use the traditional 6 to 8 grams with this basket, then use the tamper one finds mounted on Italian espresso grinders, since this is small and curved enough to tamp down on the narrow lower section of single baskets.

And for those of you always decrying the cheesy tampers that come with Italian machines -- yes, Virginia, they do work ... on single baskets.

[johney5]

Thanks for the replies...

Grinder: no I have not bought a grinder yet....But I'm not using the Kitchenaid anymore..i'm having my beans ground where I buy them. I think the grind is pretty good: however I will buy a grinder soon..

Regarding the coffee. Actually I haven't tried zillions, but rather 4 or 5 different beans. I've spent time with each bean trying to adjust volume and tamp. I really feel it's ridiculous to have to send away for coffee when I have seen the same beans perform better with other machines. Why should I use anything different than what they are using in the cafes in Italy. I prefer the proletariat approach.

As far as the Barista skills of my Italian friends...yes they pour more...but honestly some of the cafes have young kids working behind the bars, and they do pretty well. These cafes I'm talking about are not old farty places with those old guys who match the machines...and even if Provenzano himself was having coffee there (which he probably had been last year), these are definitely not great Baristas. I'm sure the machines are set up by the companies that service the machines..but that's about it.

I mean't pre infusion, not prepull (sorry). It seems to help.

I've tried the double basket, and yes it works a bit better, but it's such a waste of coffee..I feel a bit guilty about this. And this time when I was italy I was checking if they were using the double basket trick. For the most part they were not. So if they can do it...why can't I?

I'm thinking the water is the real problem. I'm using bottled water in my machine...evian, or vitel. I think their water has a very different PH then water anywhere else in the world, especially Italy. But I also don't want to get into filters, plumbing etc...I am a geek, but am getting close to divorce...

[bainesy]

Thanks for the replies...

Grinder: no I have not bought a grinder yet....But I'm not using the Kitchen aid anymore..i'm having my beans ground where I buy them. I think the grind is pretty good: however I will buy a grinder soon..

You really, really, REALLY need a quality grinder. Really. Coffee degrades as soon as it's ground.

Regarding the coffee. Actually I haven't tried zillions, but rather 4 or 5 different beans. I've spent time with each bean trying to adjust volume and tamp. I really feel it's ridiculous to have to send away for coffee when I have seen the same beans perform better with other machines. Why should I use anything different than what they are using in the cafes in Italy. I prefer the proletariat approach.

I doubt that the beans they use bear much relation to what you're using - your Italian friends probably have a direct line to the roaster, whereas if you're in France I doubt you're buying the same thing

As far as the Barista skills of my Italian friends...yes they pour more...but honestly some of the cafes have young kids working behind the bars, and they do pretty well. These cafes I'm talking about are not old farty places with those old guys who match the machines...and even if Provenzano himself was having coffee there (which he probably had been last year), these are definitely not great Baristas. I'm sure the machines are set up by the companies that service the machines..but that's about it.

Nothing wrong with old farty places... And I didn't mean to suggest that you had to be old to be a barista - a bit of enthusiasm, combined with good beans, a good grind and a clean machine will always impress the **** out of me.

I'm thinking the water is the real problem. I'm using bottled water in my machine...evian, or vitel. I think their water has a very different PH then water anywhere else in the world, especially Italy. But I also don't want to get into filters, plumbing etc...I am a geek, but am getting close to divorce...

Eliminate the more likely problems first.

[JonR10]

If you do the same things over and over again you cannot expect to get any different results. Sorry.

If you use old beans and then pregrind them at a shop then don't expect much crema.

It ain't the water, it's the old beans and the (lack of a) grinder.


Find a source for fresh beans roast dated less than a couple of weeks before use and grind them fresh for each shot and then tamp (even moderately well) and you will produce loads of crema. One caveat - loads of crema does not always equate to a yummy shot.

If you insist on using Illy then move to Italy where the Illy coffee is more likely to be fresh.


BTW those kids in the Italian shops probably pull more shots in a day than you or I pull in a month. They have skills, even if they're youthful. I'll wager they use quality grinders and grind coffee fresh. Really - that's the key.



Try fresh beans. Use a double basket and a decent tamper (it's easier, really).
The pictured shot is using an extra-big 18g basket loaded with 20g of coffee.

Drink the coffee, and don't feel guilty about "waste".


Think about it like this:
You will be helping poor coffee farmers make a living.




Cheers

[johney5]

A little progress, and a little savings too. I was just about to buy a tamper and have it shipped from the US, when I discovered that I could buy a really nice tamper for much less money on German Ebay. I received my tamper today. Using a 58 mm tamper as opposed to a plastic tamper supplied with the Andreja, is a major improvement in terms of consistancy. Crema is not better yet, but the shot is a whole lot easier to control.

[TimEggers]

Jon that shot is sick!

Beautiful man!