Alternatives to the La Marzocco GS3

[orian]

I want to purchase an espresso machine but can't afford a la Marzocco GS/3... what I really want. I would like to find one however, that has all of the following:

1. rotary pump
2. dual boiler
3. E61 Brew group
4. Plumb in capability

Does such a machine exist for under $4000?

Thanks

orian

[keepitsimple]

there's at least one if you eliminate the e61 from your list of requirements (the GS3 doesn't have one, of course)

[HB]

3. E61 Brew group

The Expobar Brewtus is the only dual boiler E61 that I've heard of. Why is the E61 one of your key criteria? I agree it's a very good design, but even after evaluating a roomful of E61 espresso machines, I'd still pick the non-E61 Elektra A3 over any of them.

[orian]

The Expobar Brewtus is the only dual boiler E61 that I've heard of. Why is the E61 one of your key criteria? I agree it's a very good design, but even after evaluating a roomful of E61 espresso machines, I'd still pick the non-E61 Elektra A3 over any of them.

Thanks for the replies

I looked into the Expobar but I don't think it has a rotary pump (I could be wrong)and I understand it's quite noisy as a result. I'm new at this so I'm definitely open to changes in my requirements for I have only based them on reviews I have read. I did not know about the A3 looks good but I don't think it has a dual boiler?

Keepitsimple, yes, la marzocco has designed their own group head I believe, if I eliminate the e61 option what machine do you have in mind?

orian

[HB]

I did not know about the A3 looks good but I don't think it has a dual boiler?

No, it doesn't, but I assumed your goal was the best possible espresso since you cite the La Marzocco GS3 as your ultimate choice, if price were not an issue. To my knowledge, no espresso machine available on the market meets all your criteria. Back to my question...

Why is the E61 one of your key criteria?

[Randii]

I looked into the Expobar but I don't think it has a rotary pump (I could be wrong)and I understand it's quite noisy as a result.

FYI: My understanding from my research into this machine (I own one) is that the Brewtus does have a rotary pump for their plumbed in version. That version is apparently only readily available in Australia and in Europe. A kit has to be requested from Whole Latte Love for machines in North America if you want that option.

The only other double boiler that is plumbed in within your price range (that I am aware of) is the La Spaziale Vivaldi II, which (from my understanding, not from experience) is a very good machine (reportedly better than the Brewtus) - but it doesn't have the E61 Brew group.

So the point really is a valid one as to why the E61 Brew group is a criteria.

[luca]

FYI: My understanding from my research into this machine (I own one) is that the Brewtus does have a rotary pump for their plumbed in version. That version is apparently only readily available in Australia and in Europe. A kit has to be requested from Whole Latte Love for machines in North America if you want that option.

Yep, the plumbed-in version is available in Australia. I'm sure that even if a kit weren't available your friendly neighbourhood technician would be able to rig something up for a few hundred bucks. You will lose the ability to use the tank, though.

nB: If we're going to get technical, the brewtus doesn't have an e61 group, it has an eb61 group. I have no idea what the difference is, but I thought I'd point it out for completeness.

No, it doesn't, but I assumed your goal was the best possible espresso since you cite the La Marzocco GS3 as your ultimate choice, if price were not an issue.

I think that that's a fantastic point to make. There is absolutely no substitute for hands-on experience. It would be well and truly worth your while to actually try out some of the machines in your price range if possible, and to relate your specifications back to what you want in the cup. For example, I think that the GS3 is pretty phenomenal when it comes to magnifying the more subtle and fleeting flavours that you get in a great espresso blend, but if what you really want is to get a rich and chocolately espresso at the expense of these flavours, you probably don't need to cough up the dough for a GS3. Specifications are all well and good, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

FWIW, I'll throw this into the ring as another machine that you might like, but that doesn't meet your specs. I haven't used it, but I thought that a few of the other machines by the same manufacturer were quite good.

Cheers,

Luca

[miKe mcKoffee]

If we're going to get technical, the brewtus doesn't have an e61 group, it has an eb61 group. I have no idea what the difference is, but I thought I'd point it out for completeness.
Luca

I know it doesn't use a standard E61 group gasket but rather a proprietary one that while looks virtually the same but they charge over twice as much for.

[keepitsimple]

Keepitsimple, yes, la marzocco has designed their own group head I believe, if I eliminate the e61 option what machine do you have in mind?

orian

Given that the one I have is no longer manufactured (although was recently still available from at least one US distributor's site) If I were buying today, I'd buy the La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi.

This is double boiler - rotary pump - plumb in - plumb out (with an optional kit).

I think the Brewtus may be available with a rotary pump in some markets, but not the US as a standard. That does have an e61 style grouphead.

I may soon be in the market for a second machine, and the La Spaziale is the only one on my shortlist. Have to confess that it's *partly* cosmetic - not a fan of big chunks of s/s and chrome (having owned that style in the past). That's a personal thing though.

[Richard]

I want to purchase an espresso machine but can't afford a la Marzocco GS/3... what I really want. I would like to find one however, that has all of the following:

1. rotary pump
2. dual boiler
3. E61 Brew group
4. Plumb in capability

Does such a machine exist for under $4000?

Thanks

orian

The La Spaziale Vivaldi meets three of the four criteria -- it does not have an E61 group -- and retails for around $2,000.

[Teme]

I hear that Vibiemme will introduce a dual-boiler, PID, rotary pump machine with the E61 group next month in Milan...

Br,
Teme

[Jacob]

Why not a Dalla Corte?

[EspressoObsessed]

Does Dalla Corte have a US distributor yet?

[HB]

Members posed the same question in the thread Dalla Corte Mini over a year ago. The Sovrana Store carried it for awhile; I don't see it on their website now. Google failed to find any US resellers. If it's sold in the US, they're well hidden.

[jonniewishbone]

I have an Appia which was mentioned as an option above and I give it full marks. Steams like a locomotive and delivers a quality cup without exception. Not a dual boiler but temp is spot in every pull without a flush.. even after sitting for an hour. A five liter boiler will never allow you to run out steam. Never misses a beat. Yep.. I am so impressed that I am going to get the two group next year.

J

[orian]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I have not heard of some of the machines mentioned so I have some research to do. The advise that using the units is the best way to know and understand the product is good but not an option unfortunately. I did use a La Marzocco today--hard to go wrong with this machine, but $$$. The Vivaldi looks like a great option for my pocket book and I'm seriously looking into this unit which is available in my country.

I e-mailed Joseph Parrottino at coffeetech <www.caffetech.com> the same options I posted here and he too recommend the Vivaldi, but he also had this to say "If an E61 head in a double boiler is what you want - than you will need
to wait some time - as we are in the process of designing one in Italy at this time - when it will be ready is difficult to say." I wonder what the price will be and what company he is referring to?

Why the E61 brew group by Faema? I have based this choice on many reviews like the following: http://www.wholelattelove.com/art...e61_brew_group.cfm

Orian

[Ken Fox]

I want to purchase an espresso machine but can't afford a la Marzocco GS/3... what I really want. I would like to find one however, that has all of the following:

1. rotary pump
2. dual boiler
3. E61 Brew group
4. Plumb in capability

Does such a machine exist for under $4000?

Thanks

orian

Buying a machine based on specs, such as you give above, is like having an operation from a surgeon who operates on you with a surgical textbook next to the OR table, just in case.

Based on what you have posted in this thread it is my opinion that you do not know enough about what you are searching for to be able to even tell the difference in the product produced by any number of fine machines that out there and which do not meet your specs. I would throw the GS3 into that mix as well, as a machine meeting your specs which will not produce "better" shots than any number of the others being operated by experienced home baristas.

Espresso is more than a recipe for a certain type of coffee produced by a certain type of machine. It is a culinary product with a particular recipe that varies depending on what you are trying to make and with what sorts of coffee and what sorts of equipment. There is not one definition of "good" and "better," but many.

In making excellent espresso, one has to have a certain level of equipment, which includes a very good grinder and a good espresso machine. With this level of equipment, the most important other factors are (without question#1, the most important being) the COFFEE ITSELF, and following that, the person making the espresso drink. Somewhere much lower on the list is to be found the differences between what you would get from a lower priced E61 machine vs. something like a GS3, by competent operators.

I have left out of this discussion basic competence as a barista. This is important however if you use Italian-ish type dosing, e.g. ~12-15 g for a double basket, assuming proper grind, the espresso shots more or less make themselves.

If you really want to make the best espresso available, concentrate first on the coffee that you are using, next on the grinder, and only after that would the espresso machine come up, and then it would be less important.

HUGE improvements in espresso quality come from the COFFEE, way before they come from anything else.

ken

[HB]

Follow-on discussion split to Rumour of Dual Boiler Vibiemme...

[CoffeeOwl]

Hi!

Not only 'if I were you, I'd buy La Spaziale Vivaldi II'
Actually, I'm not you and I'm just buying it
I went through a similar machine research a month ago and decided it's the final and supreme choice for me. And let me stress: Vivaldi II.

[woodchuck]

Orian, the good news is that there are a large number of choices that will ultimately produce great espresso if you are willing to put the effort into developing the skills in front of the machine or as Dan has pointed out in the past on the other end of the portafilter. The bad news is you ultimately have to decide on one (or at least for most of us). For my two cents worth I went through several months of research before finally ending up with a M4 stepless (the grinder is just as important) and a Vivaldi SII. I have not been disappointed.

Cheers

Ian