Advisable to replate interior of old boilers?

[timo888]

When a 1970s era brass boiler has lost its plating, should it be replated before it's used on a daily basis?

Regards
Timo

[espressme]

When a 1970s era brass boiler has lost its plating, should it be replated before it's used on a daily basis?

Regards
Timo

Hi Tim
IMLTHO;
When I spoke to the folks at a major espresso parts supplier, They suggested a replate rather than using. However, look at all the rebuilds!
If you will look up Jeweler's bronze or cartridge brass,at this metals supply companyyou can choose for yourself. They all have a very small proportion of lead and have been in use and still are in use for boilers. I believe the factor you are interested in is the "leaching" of metals by hot water over a period of time.
I am using my Cremina with the original brass boiler after the plating went south. ( I like the taste better! )
Cheers
richard / espressme

[timo888]

When I spoke to the folks at a major espresso parts supplier, They suggested a replate rather than using. However, look at all the rebuilds!

The logic of "however" escapes me, Captain.

They all have a very small proportion of lead and have been in use and still are in use for boilers.

Yes.

I believe the factor you are interested in is the "leaching" of metals by hot water over a period of time.

Correct. Also, verdigris (why folks are discouraged from using vinegar to descale?). If it's not too expensive to replate with food-safe nickel, I think it would be prudent to have it done--based on info I have found since posting the question. Lots of info on brass cookware.

Regards
Timo

[espressme]

Correct. If it's not too expensive to replate with food-safe nickel, I think it would be prudent to have it done--based on info I have found since posting the question. Lots of info on brass cookware.

Regards
Timo

Hi Tim,
I was taking a course in Hazmat last year and one of the topics was nickel ingestion. The course leader was of the opinion that there are some negative benefits to using nickel in cookware. She was adamant that I not use nickel plating in a copper pot that I was making. Some persons are sensitive to it and may get severe itch and dermatitis. Doing a quick search today I find it is now used on stovetop cookware. I would find what plating element the electroplater knows ( hazmat and FDA, NSF) to be food safe under hot wet leaching conditions.
You know what sources to check for food safe. There seems to be NSF approved nickel platings.
Cheers
richard
PS As with anything else, there are risks getting out of bed in the evening.

[PaulTheRoaster]

I suppose copper tubing is also out then?

[Paul]

Not all makers adopted plating. Faema and gaggia have used plating since the mid '50s whereas the likes of smaller makers, eg carimali, never bothered. I am sure that it was done early on as an aesthetic thing rather than anything to do with food safety.

Of all the dangerous things in life I face, lead poisoning from making coffee using machines with exposed brass and copper is, I think, a pretty low risk. Now, whether the worn Ni surface is a risk may be another matter. I polish this off during restos.

Each to their own, I don't mean any of the above to be advice.

[espressme]

Not all makers adopted plating. Faema and gaggia have used plating since the mid '50s whereas the likes of smaller makers, eg carimali, never bothered. I am sure that it was done early on as an aesthetic thing rather than anything to do with food safety.

Of all the dangerous things in life I face, lead poisoning from making coffee using machines with exposed brass and copper is, I think, a pretty low risk. Now, whether the worn Ni surface is a risk may be another matter. I polish this off during restos.

Each to their own, I don't mean any of the above to be advice.

Hi Paul,
In my opinion, there is more lead hazard in my older home plumbing system than all the espresso systems that I shall operate in my life!
Again, one finds what for them is an acceptable risk. Working in industry in the 60's and 70's did nothing positive for my health. The most common hand cleaning agent back then is now considered a major carcinogen and I have MS type damage from a certain common solvent chemical of those days. "Use what we give ya or your out'a here" "Who needs a mask, your only gonna be in there a minute, get to work!"
A tiny % of lead , nickel, chrome, I do not consider a major threat.

What I do hope for is that people become able to find information for themselves and decide for themselves.
richard
PS As with anything else, there are risks getting out of bed in the evening.

[mogogear]

There is a lot of copper pipe in lots of houses in many places, also brass elbows and fittings that are in line with hot water heaters etc......... I am going to keep my worry meter down - same as Paul- not to be taken as advice- everybody is in charge of their boat- I just steer mine.

[timo888]

There is a lot of copper pipe in lots of houses in many places, also brass elbows and fittings that are in line with hot water heaters etc......... I am going to keep my worry meter down - same as Paul- not to be taken as advice- everybody is in charge of their boat- I just steer mine.

In honor of H-B's non-virtual location:

http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/...at/wqwm/he395.html

Regards
Timo

[Paul]

i remember at varsity reading papers of lead poisoning case studies where the exposure route was from drinking moonshine produced in apparatus that used car radiators as condensers. Apparently this was a sizable problem at some stage in the past

[mogogear]

Thanks Timmo- in the article the main contributor of the lead was from the solder- not the copper / brass etc. When I had my boiler reworked I had all joints redone with silver solder- AOK stuff- I cannot speak to the original solder used. My boiler-repairman said it was silver solder in his opinion- I do not know how that washes.....

[timo888]

More on copper and lead

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~toxmetal/TXQAcu.shtml

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

On lead leached from brass:

A survey of 1,484 drinking water samples taken from various districts of the American Water Works Service Company showed that average lead levels in a 1-L first-draw sample for copper, galvanized, and plastic pipes were 9, 4.2, and 4.5 microgram/L, respectively. These data show that even plumbing that did not use lead solder for copper pipes (e.g., plastic pipes) contained significant levels of lead, primarily from the brass faucet fixtures, which are used in almost all plumbing. The brass fixtures may account for approximately one-third of the lead in the first-draw water (Lee et al. 1989). Lead levels are also known to increase when tap water is heated in boiling kettles that contain lead in their heating elements. [emphasis added]
p. 331, http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp13-c6.pdf

[TUS172]

That begs the question of... one who continually uses a boiler and rarely flushes it. What type of heavy contaminates can build up in such a environment?
Anyone have the resources to test the water of a freshly heated pull from an older Cremina type boiler for contaminates?
I cringe now considering the gasket material I used as a replacement for the '86 added to the potentials from all the exposed seams at which those old boilers are soldered at. Oh well, time to retire the '86, at least until I get the gasket replaced.
My wife works for Dartmouth... I was considering going down on Friday with both of my Creminas to host as a barista for a little 'get together' that one employee per quarter does for the Alumni department. Hmmm... perhaps I should go with my Europiccola instead? It would never keep up with 10 - 15 employee requests. I think I had better reconsider volunteer work for the time being. Perhaps the next time she hosts is a better plan.

[timo888]

That begs the question of... one who continually uses a boiler and rarely flushes it. What type of heavy contaminates can build up in such a environment?
Anyone have the resources to test the water of a freshly heated pull from an older Cremina type boiler for contaminates?
I cringe now considering the gasket material I used as a replacement for the '86 added to the potentials from all the exposed seams at which those old boilers are soldered at. Oh well, time to retire the '86, at least until I get the gasket replaced.
My wife works for Dartmouth... I was considering going down on Friday with both of my Creminas to host as a barista for a little 'get together' that one employee per quarter does for the Alumni department. Hmmm... perhaps I should go with my Europiccola instead? It would never keep up with 10 - 15 employee requests. I think I had better reconsider volunteer work for the time being. Perhaps the next time she hosts is a better plan.

Verdigris can build up in the brass boiler, but there are no lead contaminants "building up" in it. The lead leaches from the brass, a process which soft water and heat exacerbate. Mineral deposits also build up, but they are your buddies, at least from the perspective of lead exposure, because they inhibit the lead's leaching out of the brass into the water; of course they can interfere with the proper functioning of the machine when they build up too much and start clogging the pipes. What you want is a healthy patina of lime-scale

Regards
Timo

[espressme]

As far as solder, The method in use for boilers has been Silver Brazing with a silver alloy filler rod that contains no Cadmium. It is a hard solder at a high temp which approaches the melting point of the substrate. Also many parts were and are brazed ( the word from brass) A braze at F 1300° to 1800°as differentiated from a plumbing solder containing lead and tin at a temperature of about F 575°-685°.

Use of common sense and a healthy respect for health is the best tool for enjoying a long life.
So let's have info sources, not a self re stimulating scare campaign! As Sargent Friday said: "Just the facts, Mam, just the facts"
sincerely
richard

[timo888]

So let's have info sources...

What do you call the North Carolina Extension Service bulletin on lead in tap water, the Dartmouth University Toxic Metals website, and the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry document, if not "info sources"?

According to the Agency for Toxic Substances, significant levels of lead appear in tap water even when plastic pipes are used and no solder is involved--the lead comes from the brass fittings in the faucets. Hot water leaches more lead from brass than does cold water. I would therefore expect water heated to 235°F under pressure in a brass boiler to contain more lead than tap water, especially if the water has been allowed to sit in the boiler overnight. The use of water softeners/soft water and descaling exacerbate the leaching.

I am not trying to "scare" anyone--just suggesting that replating of boilers might be a prudent thing to do when restoring vintage machines with brass boilers whose plating has worn off. Folks spend quite a lot on aesthetic rehab. When we get down to brass tacks we must remember that these machines produce a beverage we drink.



Regards
Timo

[espressme]

I acknowledge your point of view.
richard

[PaulTheRoaster]

I flush a lot when I use my pump HX, so I am not too concerned about the water coming out of of it. My lever project is nearing completion--I might send a water sample in for testing just so I know what risk I'm ignoring. I think a lot of the recommended numbers assume you are drinking gallons of this stuff, not 2 oz of it a couple times a day. Then there are all the "unknown unknowns" from eating out and the like ...

[peacecup]

About six ounces a day total should keep our levels of lead under control. But I would like to see some test results also. I plan to find a local lab that can do lab tests for lead, and bring in a sample.

Re: flushing the boiler - timo said:

but there are no lead contaminants "building up" in it.

I'm not sure if this is true - if you heat, and lead is leached into the water it will stay there. Each time you heat more will be leached, and concentrations will increase. If you had a boiler full of clean water for each shot you pulled, the concentration of lead in each of those shots would be lower than if you pulled a number of shots from the same water as the boiler emptied. No?

PC