Advice with install of PID for Gaggia Espresso

[pravspresso]

Hi.

I've looked at the gaggia and rancilio PID install forums.

I'm still not clear on where my hook ups will go and what is positive and what is negative for my power source
from the PID.

I've included a picture detailing what i believe to the proper area for connection.

I've also included a pic of the front view of the unit.

After reading the instructions, I assume I should leave this on auto setting.

I'm still not clear on how to program the unit for temperature settings, so unless i hear otherwise it's back to trial and error.

Please advise.

Thanks a mil!

[erics]

The power source for the PID is NOT polarity sensitive, i.e. you have it correct or you could reverse it and it would still be correct.

Thermocouple gets attached to terminals 4 & 5 and is polarity sensitive - the red colored lead on the thermocouple is negative. What type of thermocouple and where are you attaching?

Power PID with a nipped and stripped 18 gauge extension cord until you get the kinks worked out.

Test/"calibrate" your thermocouple in a pot of vigorously boiling water - you will likely enter a correction factor of up to ±4 degrees F. Your "Sv" for the Gaggia could start at 228 F but I defer to another Gaggia PID'er. Initiate autotuning of the PID when Pv is around 200-205.

It's an adventure and, seriously, happy brewing.

Eric S.

[pravspresso]

Housing of the probe: 13 mm long, stainless steel with. M6 x1.25 or 1/4-20 thread.

Cable: 1 meter long

Maximum working temperature: < 400C (780F)

I provided a pic. showing what i believe to be the proper connections.



thx a mil. for the suggestions.

journey forward!

[erics]

That stainless steel thermocouple is specifically designed for installation in a thermowell. It has very loose 1/4-20 threading (M6 x 1.25 is NOT a standard metric thread in any sense) IMO as an attempt to prevent galling when installed in a SS thermowell.

While I am not familar with Gaggia, I thought it had/has button style thermostats like Silvia and I suppose you are going to try to clamp this thermocouple onto the boiler surface?

The better solution would be to buy a Type T washer style thermocouple with Teflon insulation from: http://www.omega.com as many have done with Silvia.

Eric S.

[pravspresso]

Here is a pic.

I was told the threads are not western iso type.

So, this is a spare brew thermo...I'm just going to put the washer through

this thread and lock back into place..i will of course render the existing brew thermo. useless first.






thx once again to all who are helping me to figure this out.

I have very, very limited knowledge of electronics.

I was an industrial designer by trade so i'm slightly familiar with process and applications.

[erics]

Sounds like a great plan - use a little thermal grease on all contact surfaces. That Gaggia brew thermostat has threading just like Silvia's "safety" thermostat ( 165 C) which is screwed into the side of her boiler at the top.

Eric S.

[pravspresso]

how exactly do i ...or rather.

what buttons am i too press? for my PID?

i got no instructions and have no idea. i assume it's the "set" button...when i hit the optimum temp. from boiler water.

[JimG]

I think you will have more success mounting a washer t/c probe if you scrap the existing button thermostat, and then use a short, matching machine screw in its place to secure the washer. Otherwise, I think you'll find that a washer probe is not flat enough to be "clamped" below the tstat.

[Anybody know what the size/threading is on the Gaggia thermostat stud?]

Secondly, I suggest that you watch the temperatures closely when you autotune your controller. I had one of those "run away" on me once and had to shut down the machine. If you see temps getting above 280F while autotuning, then that is probably a sign something has gone wrong and you need to abort before tripping the thermal fuse.

Jim

[erics]

"how exactly do i ...or rather.
what buttons am i too press? for my PID?
i got no instructions and have no idea. i assume it's the "set" button...when i hit the optimum temp. from boiler water."

Huh?

Email me offline or email Auber Instruments and he will send you the manual for your PID.

I think I have the manual for that PID on my website under /PID

http://users.rcn.com/erics/

[pravspresso]

okay.

i downloaded the pdf..and well..i'm completely lost and confused due to my own lack of knowledge.

thx a million though.

I think i'll just pass on installation.

Maybe i can find someone in Toronto who does installations.

Cheers

[erics]

Pravspresso -

Are you confused on the PID installation or the "setup" of the PID?

Would you (or someone else) be trying to use the thermocouple that came with the controller or did you source another one as previously recommended?

[pravspresso]

the setup is clear.

ps. i got the t type washer thermocouple.

http://auberins.com/index.php?mai...nfo&products_id=16


I read the PDF...and well..i'm just a little lost in terms of what to do with the PID after the install.

like really lost.

i attached this..from the pdf.






ps. i didnt' see other setups using fuses..but they suggest one for the ssr. Do you agree?

I've never had issues with power surges in my house.

cheers

[erics]

Here's a quickie while I look over the documentation for this particular PID.

Don't worry about alm1 and alm2 - they have no bearing on PID operation until you become a PID wizkid and then only after you figure some innovative thing to do with them.

Yes, Pv is what the thermocouple is reporting and Sv is what you would like it to be reporting. A ballpark Sv is 228-230 but, as before, I defer to a Gaggia PID-er.

Just hook the PID up with power (as I detailed earlier) and connect the thermocouple (as detailed earlier). Forget about the SSR and just observe machine operation/thermocouple operation with the normal brew thermostat hooked up.

That is an education in and by itself.

[pravspresso]

Don't know if this helps but i got this pdf from another Gaggia PID Application blogger.

It's a similar unit has alot more explanatory steps.

what do you think?

4. Initialization Parameter Setting (power and any type of input device required)

a. Temporarily connect power and thermocouple to unit - see Section 8.

b. Press (SET) to enter the setting mode, then enter code "0089" and press (SET) again.

c. The first parameter, "Inty" will appear on screen. Press (SET) and scroll through the various sensor types by pressing (v) or (^) until the one you want appears. Press (SET) to select that particular sensor.

d. Press (^) to see the next parameter, "Outy" and then press (SET). Press (v) or (^) to scroll through the choices (0, 1, or 2) and press (SET) when the one you want is shown.

e. Press (^) to see the next parameter, "Caty" and then press (SET). Press (v) or (^) to scroll through the choices (0, 1, or 2) and press (SET) when the one you want is shown.

f. Continue the same process for the remaining three parameters.

a. To activate auto-tuning, press and hold (>) until "AT" indicator blinks, which indicates auto-tuning is in progress. Activate auto-tuning when the machine to be controlled is at or 10% below setpoint temperature (SV). When auto-tuning finishes, the "AT" indicator light turns off. Now newly calculated PID parameters are stored in memory and will be used by the controller.
b. To EXIT during the auto-tuning process, press and hold (>) until "AT" indicator turns off. The previously entered PID parameters values are used by the controller.

[erics]

Yes, I would say that is a well written document - I wrote it - it is on my FTP site under /PID.

Unfortunately, it is for a 1/32 DIN PID which is not what you have. Again, I am assumming that the PID you are applying to this Gaggia is the one you posted pics of back in July 06.

Now I know I'm sounding like a smuck but all of the "problems" you are having is what makes this guy so good and so well respected/liked in the espresso community:

http://www.pidkits.com/

The manual on my FTP site is not the exact manual for your PID but it is very close and, in this case, close counts.

To answer a previous question of yours re fuses - no, I do not believe any fuses are necessary but I do know that others do.

[pravspresso]

i just hooked up the power and thermocouple.

im watching the temps. which make no sense.

i see a negative sign beside alm2 and the numbers go from 1 to 20

i know it doesn't matter but i set the sv variable to 203F just to see if i could do it.

At this point...i think i just want to use it too see what the temps are in the boiler

and forget about programming it.

If this is even possible i have no idea cause i can't figure it out.

I'm going to buy a rancilio silvia in about 6mths and have someone put a pid on

for me. For now i just want to see the temps inside the boiler and i will just surf

as usual for the proper temps.

but how to do that..is the question.

sigh

[welone]

I think you will have more success mounting a washer t/c probe if you scrap the existing button thermostat, and then use a short, matching machine screw in its place to secure the washer. Otherwise, I think you'll find that a washer probe is not flat enough to be "clamped" below the tstat.

that was exactly the problem I had some weeks ago; the t-stat was just a tad to short for reaching the screw thread with the washer placed under it..

Anybody know what the size/threading is on the Gaggia thermostat stud?

it's M4 (4mm) - at least in my gaggia classic

After installation I tried to follow greg scace's instructions - but with a temperature drop of roughly 8 dec C (=16 degF) during an 60ml shot, it's seems to me that the critical setting of the parameters have to be chosen much less aggressive than for a more stable silvia.

for me the ultimate cure in pid tuning instructions was the link posted by cafeIKE: http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z115-117.pdf

[cafeIKE]

Test/"calibrate" your thermocouple in a pot of vigorously boiling water.

If going to this trouble, be sure you know the altitude and barometeric pressure, and adjust boiling point as necessary.
Pure water removes another variable.

[welone]

If going to this trouble, be sure you know the altitude and barometeric pressure, and adjust boiling point as necessary.

actually the boiling pressure of pure water is determined by pressure alone (which in turn varies with altitude and meteorological conditions); just go to a weather page for your region for finding out the current local pressure and then feed this calculator with it (units are: kPa (1kPa=0.01bar) or mmHg).