Advice about purchasing a used espresso machine

[jmcphail]

I'm taking a moment to introduce myself to the community and to publicly thank *everyone* for their prolific and insightful posting - what a great learning tool I have at my disposal! Thank you to everyone and to the host!

I have been a home-roaster for a couple of years now, and my setup is humble - I use a Virtuoso grinder and a Technivorm drip brewer into a thermal pot, and grind fresh for each pot of coffee. My forays into the espresso world include a Salton steam toy in college, and then again about 15 years ago a reconditioned La Pavoni lever machine found at the Goodwill store - I think it was a EuroPiccolo, possibly, and it was orange. Since then, nothing but drip and press pot, and a ristretto when I find a decent one available.

I have found a good condition, used machine and I'm trying to ask all the right questions - does it work, any problems, how would it ship, has it ever been descaled, how often backflushed, what maintenance performed, how will it ship, drain the boiler prior to shipping, etc.

Luckily for me, my wife is understanding!

If I purchase this machine, I would also purchase a good grinder to go with it - the Mazzers and Macaps and Cimbali's seem like obvious choices from my reading. And a good tamper. And plumbing supplies. And a water filter system. And some kind of mobile kitchen cabinet/island unit to put it all on. And so on.

I continue to research posts regarding used machines and learn from them, and would appreciate any advice anyone can offer about purchasing a used espresso machine. Even if the advice is "do your homework and read this link", it would be much appreciated!

Regards to all, and thanks again,

-John

[zin1953]

If I purchase this machine, I would also purchase a good grinder to go with it - the Mazzers and Macaps and Cimbali's seem like obvious choices from my reading. And a good tamper. And plumbing supplies. And a water filter system. And some kind of mobile kitchen cabinet/island unit to put it all on. And so on.

So, it sounds like you are looking for a plumbed-in, one-group machine -- either an HX or DB -- right? OK, my first question is "Why used?" Is it budgetary? (Keep in mind, I'm the kind of person who buys new cars, rather than used ones, so . . . . )

That said, I just acquired an Olympia Caffarex (manufactured in 1989) off eBay, so who am I to ask?

Cheers,
Jason

[jmcphail]

Thanks Jason for your reply,

It is budgetary. I'm trying to get into a reasonable machine at a reasonable price, and put more into the grinder.

I am more comfortable with getting "too much machine" than "too little machine"; I'm hoping I can grow into its capabilities rather than be limited by them. And later it may be easier to pass along if I decide either to upgrade or get out completely. I'm hoping these aren't misguided attitudes?

So, it sounds like you are looking for a plumbed-in, one-group machine -- either an HX or DB -- right? OK, my first question is "Why used?" Is it budgetary? (Keep in mind, I'm the kind of person who buys new cars, rather than used ones, so . . . . )

[jesawdy]

I have found a good condition, used machine and I'm trying to ask all the right questions - does it work, any problems, how would it ship, has it ever been descaled, how often backflushed, what maintenance performed, how will it ship, drain the boiler prior to shipping, etc.

If you have found a seller that can actually answer those questions, then you are one lucky buyer.

On the pessimistic side, as the saying goes on House, "Everybody lies". Being more optimistic, not everybody has a clue what they have, what they are selling or how to care for it in the first place.

My biggest advice, UPS is your enemy.... know that one thing. If you can get the machine strapped to a pallet and shipped freight, you can expect to at least receive the machine in its current condition.

(I'll add more later... Windows Automatic Update is about to cut me off! )

[jmcphail]

I am definitely concerned about being scammed, and asked a few questions that helped me feel that I'm actually dealing with a person that used the machine and knows coffee. So at least if I get scammed, it will be by another coffee drinker...

The person added detail to my questions about draining the machine and water treatment, for instance. The person did not add that the line pressure had been regulated to 20-30PSI, which I had hoped to hear, though. But the answers to everything I've asked contained enough detail to indicate knowledgeability. Communication has been prompt.

What kind of damage can come to a rotary pump machine if the inbound line pressure is too high?

I don't know if freight shipping is a possibility, is FedEx any better than UPS?

As always, appreciate your responses, thanks for taking the time.

If you have found a seller that can actually answer those questions, then you are one lucky buyer.

On the pessimistic side, as the saying goes on House, "Everybody lies". Being more optimistic, not everybody has a clue what they have, what they are selling or how to care for it in the first place.

My biggest advice, UPS is your enemy.... know that one thing. If you can get the machine strapped to a pallet and shipped freight, you can expect to at least receive the machine in it's current condition.

(I'll add more later... Windows Automatic Update is about to cut me off! )

[jesawdy]

On shipping.... prosumer class machines survive the journey via UPS or FedEX by professional packing and some internal considerations to the the construction of the machine. On the professional packing, this would be form fitting styrofoam inserts or Instapak foam cocooning the machine in an inner box, packaging the loose bits in a smaller separate box (like the portafilter handles, baskets, etc.), and double boxing with isolating foam corners or Instapak (both preferable) or peanuts between the inner and outer box. In regards to internal considerations, I mean things like boiler mounting brackets, frame construction methods, constrained rotary pumps and the like being designed to withstand the rigors of shipping. A lot of these internal details were not taken into consideration on commercial machines as they were never meant to be shipped this way. They are also, bigger, heavier and more expensive, so freight is a better option.

You will notice that machines like the Cimbali Junior and the Elektra A3 are boxed, strapped, palletized and shipped light freight or air freight. The machine is well protected and the likelihood of a trashed $3000 machine is slim.

UPS will ship freight and you can do this at any UPS store. It is somewhat more costly than other freight options, but it is very convenient. To save on freight shipping, if you have a loading dock at work (or know someone that does) or if you can arrange for pickup at the trucking terminal, you can save some bucks. Shipping to a household via freight costs more.

[Psyd]

I am definitely concerned about being scammed, and asked a few questions that helped me feel that I'm actually dealing with a person that used the machine and knows coffee. So at least if I get scammed, it will be by another coffee drinker...

I am planning on having the local espresso maintenance/installation pros go over my commercial machine if I get any interest in it. You may want to have the local espresso mechanic give it a ten point inspection, at your cost. Depending on the machine, it shouldn't be more than a few percentage points of your costs, and it will definitely give you an unbiased opinion. Make contact with the repair person directly, and let him know that it's your check, and that he's doing the job whether you buy the machine or not.

[jmcphail]

Alas, the machine is remote, I can't visit it or see it first hand. Great advice to follow though, I wish I could in this case.

Thanks, Psyd!

I am planning on having the local espresso maintenance/installation pros go over my commercial machine if I get any interest in it. You may want to have the local espresso mechanic give it a ten point inspection, at your cost. Depending on the machine, it shouldn't be more than a few percentage points of your costs, and it will definitely give you an unbiased opinion. Make contact with the repair person directly, and let him know that it's your check, and that he's doing the job whether you buy the machine or not.

[Psyd]

Alas, the machine is remote...

Describe remote. You mean it is in a largely uninhabited, non-metropolitan area? If that's the case, it's a crap shoot. If it's in or near a decent sized city, just suggest to the seller that you'll pay if he takes it to (fill in the name of the espresso repair facility you found on Google here), and you're buying it if the guy gives it a passing grade. Let the guy know that if there are any problems, you would be willing to negotiate price, or at least he would know what problems there are. Free diagnostics for the seller, peace of mine for you.
OK, if it's eBay, you're back to crapshoot, but it always has been.

[djmonkeyhater]

Disclaimer: I only buy used machines but not often via shipping.

A couple suggestions from a semi-new guy:

- Publish the make, model and some sort of price range for the machine. Someone on the site will certainly have some experience with it and be able to give you pointers on what to look for.

Major Note: If it's an obscure unit, all risks are greater. Parts, expertise, diagnosis, advice and all that are rare. e.g. my Spanish Futurmat. If it's a common one, 34 people reading this thread can draw electro-mechanical diagrams with correct replacement and upgrade part numbers from memory for all major components while diagnosing shot extraction from a youtube video.

- Is it a commercial machine? If you are handy, the bigger machines are not hard to fix if something minor is broken or leaking. Damaged boilers or motherboard-level electronic issues are harder to overcome.
- If capable and so-inclined, have the seller send you an excessive amount of detailed pictures. Of every single thing on the machine. A youtube video if so motivated. I use this technique for selling high-end bike parts on Ebay and you'd be surprised what good photos will inadvertantly reveal. A video of the machine in action seems hard to fake. You'll hear the pump run and see the water and steam flow.

I don't know what the dollar risk is here nor what it might represent to the financial stability of your personal spaceship but I have had generally good luck getting good value on used machines. They don't break all that frequently, much to my dismay as a handyman deal-seeker. Most of the home units that I have seen are lightly used or considered a family member. Both give you a good chance of getting a nice one.

[jmcphail]

A follow-up -

I didn't win the auction for the espresso machine I originally wanted. I was so intent on getting my bid in at the last minute that I didn't get my bid in *at all*- Aggggh!

I moped for a few days after and then decided to research a new machine. I liked what I read and heard from other La Spaziale owners, and ended up with a brand-spanking-new Red Vivaldi.

I don't know what I'm doing, but I am enjoying it so far and every few days I have yet another espresso revelation.

Many thanks to everyone who gave advice.

[zin1953]

Well, I know you'll be happy with the grinder, and I suspect you'll be happy with the machine, too!

[jmcphail]

What can I say, I'm a noob and didn't go through a long upgrade path for either piece, I just jumped in all at once. So I'm probably spoiled and don't even know it.

I liked the grinder, it grinds finer and doesn't have any of the static issues I experience with my Baratza and is built like a tank. I've never used a doser before so I'm getting used to that, but I really like the grinder. I should try grinding a shot in my Baratza to better appreciate what the Max/Hybrid brings to the table I guess.

The La Spaz itself, I love it! It's purely cosmetic, but I'm really glad I chose the red panels, it looks fantastic in my kitchen. I suspect that the double-boiler design makes it too easy - I do warm up the group when I first start, but I don't watch the water or do any counting or anything from the water dance, I programmed the single button for about a long double and just use that and warm the cup at the same time. I also got the timer for the machine, I have it waking up at 4:30am, off at 9am, on again at 4:30pm and off at 10pm on weekdays, on at 5am and off at 11pm on weekends.

After the first day of getting to know the machine the espresso tasted good, and since then I've been focusing on developing a routine and decent technique, using the bottomless PF, concentrating on dosing, distribution & tamping, and steaming. The steam just blew me away, I had to really work to slow it down at first. Lots to learn in the technique areas, but the espresso machine itself just works.

[zin1953]

I should try grinding a shot in my Baratza to better appreciate what the Max/Hybrid brings to the table I guess.

Thanks for reminding me -- I've been meaning to do that with my grinders, too. It's the espresso equivalent of pinching yourself to believe it's really true!

As for the Vivaldi, I've heard nothing but positives about it since discovering this site and CG -- glad to hear it's all true!

Cheers,
Jason