Advice about bringing an espresso machine out of storage?

[hbuchtel]

Hello All,

I'd like to get some advice about the following- Next week I'll get to see (for the first time) a commercial HX that I bought. It has been in storage for about 1 1/2 years. I won't have too much time to work on it so I'd like to buy any common replacement parts now.

So what parts will I definitely need to buy? It is a '95 Laurentis single-group (identical to the Astoria Argenta JUN-1) that was working when it was put in storage but hasn't been tested since. I've already bought de-scaler for the HX (I'm hoping to avoid de-scaling the boiler- reasonable?) and am planning on getting a new PF/group gasket.

Is there anything else that is sure to have worn out? Should I get gaskets for the steam/hot-water valves?

Thanks for any advice!

Henry

Here is a pic of the little fellow -

[cannonfodder]

You will have to descale the boiler and HX line. They are two different systems. When I rebuilt my Faema, I stripped it to the frame and soaked all the copper in descale solution in a 30 gallon drum.

Hopefully the boiler and HX were drained prior to storage. If not, and it was subjected to below 0 temperatures, you could have a ruptured HX line or boiler.

Figure on replacing every gasket in the machine, group, steam and water valves at a minimum. If you pull the boiler to descale you may want to replace the heating element just for the sake of replacing it, you will need those gaskets at well. You may need to pull the group apart to scrub out the 3-way valve, especially if it was used in a commercial environment.

The pump may need replaced, they tend to seize if they sit for a long time. Sometimes they break free and work OK. The pressurestat could need replaced, the diaphragms tend to get stiff and sticky over time.

I see it is an auto which means there is a flow-meter impeller in there. Again, they can seize if it was not put away correctly.

So, you may need a box full of parts, or a handful. It really depends on how well maintained the machine was and if it was stored properly. From the photo, it looks to be in good shape so hopefully you will just need to descale the boiler and HX, replace the group gasket and steam/water gaskets.

[OkcEspresso]

Since I have one of those and have torn in most of the way down, I'll comment.

I think you should hook it up to water and power it on. See if the pump runs and the autofill is working. Let it come up to temperature and see where water is squirting, dripping, etc (the caveat being if water does not flow into the boiler turn it off lest you cook the heating element). Listen for hissing and clanking and make sure the boiler pressure doesnt go into the red.

Pull a shot or two and look at the brew pressure and the group gasket. Keep an eye on the the copper pipe that drips down into the little hole on the drip pan (behind that stainless box). That is the drain from your 3-way valve and will tell you if your solenoid is sticking. Does it drip, drip, drip? Does it gush?

Move the steam wand around see how bad it leaks at the swivel. Watch the boiler pressure and see what the cycle is for your pressurestat. If it is huge (.5 bar), it either needs to be cleaned or replaced. I cant remember what mine was but it was pretty huge so I put a PID on mine.

As far as my emergency parts box goes:

- Group gasket, dispersion screen and gicleur screen

- Vacuum breaker

- Steam wand rebuild kit

- I have a second pump, motor and capacitor because of some silliness when I first bought it so let me know if you have trouble with yours.

Good luck,

Chris

[jesawdy]

Henry-

A lot will depend on how the machine was cared for in it's prior life, and how it was stored. Here is a recent thread on starting a machine from storage, Giotto Revival - After a year of inactivity.

I think Chris has nailed the necessary spare parts.

I would say it is quite likely that you will have to descale more than just the HX, but run the machine first to evaluate what all is requiring attention.

I have a few suggestions. First, when you first test the machine, disable the heater either by disconnecting or via the fill switch if so equipped. Second, if it has a rotary pump, it is usually very easy to detach the pump head from the motor, turn the pump shaft and see if the pump is seized or hard to turn (no sense in burning up the motor). With the pumphead in you hands, you can look for signs of leaking that would indicate you need to have it rebuilt or replaced. On the first fill up (heater disabled), I'd suggest removing the vacuum breaker or similar fitting and watching the boiler fill level manually. Test the dosing control and flow through the group. Now that you know you have water flow and fill control, you can replace the vacuum breaker and enable the heater to check the vacuum breaker and then the pressurestat operation. If that checks out, move on to the hot water/steam wands and valves. Look and listen for leaks as you work through the above process.

After you are more familiar with the machine, I would drain the boiler and inspect the element. When you get the boiler open and see what going on inside, you'll know for certain how bad the scale is (or isn't).

The above should get you well on your way to finding any problems.

[hbuchtel]

Cool, thanks a lot guys.

I just put in a order of all the group/solenoid gaskets, rebuild kit for the steam and water valves and sight glass kit at espressoparts.com. Total came to about 1/3rd of what I paid for the machine

I'm really hoping that is all that is required... honestly I have neither the time nor the skills to do a complete rebuild, so my fingers are crossed!

Chris, what is the gicleur screen that you referred to? Is it this one- "Group Cap Filter Screen"? I went ahead and ordered one anyway- also got a group head jet/gicleur just in case it is completely clogged...

I'll be extra careful when turning it on for the first time. Chris, on the fill switch which direction is fill and which is heat?

Hey hey, I'm getting excited!

Henry

[OkcEspresso]

That group cap filter screen is the part I was thinking of.

On the switch, it should be just a 2 position on/off. When you first plug it in, before turning the switch on (there is a delay), the autofill should kick in to fill the tank. If your motor or pump are shot, you will at least hear the solenoid clunk as it opens to allow water into the boiler. If you are hooked up to water, it will fill the tank at line pressure even if the motor/pump are not operating.

I would plug it in and listen for any clunking. If nothing happens after about 2 minutes, turn the switch to "On" and then listen again for solenoid or motors. If nothing happens within 1 minute. Turn it off. At this point, you have no water in your tank and run the risk of burning out your heating element. You would then begin the process of figuring out why the tank is not filling.

You can manually fill the tank by pressing a lever under the drip tray in the front right of the machine. That will begin filling the tank and then when the little red ball is visible in the sight glass, you can turn it back on again to see if the heating element is working. Personally, I would not operate it until I knew the autofill was working.

[hbuchtel]

Well I've got a good look at her, everything looks good, but haven't been able to hook up the water connection yet- I should have predicted this, but the BSP->NPT connection is giving me heck...

Does anybody know how to tell the difference between a BSPT female and a BSPP female? I thought mine was a 3/8 BSPP, but a normal 3/8 NP parallel male thread only goes halfway and then stops... not far enough to make a connection with the tapered surface inside the fitting. Does that mean that I have a BSP tapered thread?

I've found the adapters I need on mcmaster.com but I don't want to buy the wrong one...

I've been reading all the related info on H-B but haven't found an answer... any help appreciated. I hope what I wrote made sense!

Here is another photo from the side-



What a beauty, huh?

Henry

[espressme]

Now that is a clean machine! Congratulations!
richard

[jesawdy]

Does anybody know how to tell the difference between a BSPT female and a BSPP female? I thought mine was a 3/8 BSPP, but a normal 3/8 NP parallel male thread only goes halfway and then stops... not far enough to make a connection with the tapered surface inside the fitting. Does that mean that I have a BSP tapered thread?

Henry-

I feel pretty certain someone like EPNW should have a brass adapter to get you away from the BSPP mess, but....

I would suggest you get a 3/8" NPT male John Guest fitting and make use of the push-to-fit stuff to adapt to something more common. This gains you a quick way to disconnect and add a JG ball valve, check valve, etc.

The JG fitting is plastic, put a few turns of Teflon tape on it, thread that onto the end of the stainless braided hose that you have. It will eventually cross thread, but you will still have a seal.

Home Depot and Lowes carry the Watts/JG fittings, but I also found a collection of some more interesting bits at a much smaller local hardware the other week.

EDIT - Off topic, but can you tell me the make and part number on your rotary pump there?

[hbuchtel]

Henry-

I feel pretty certain someone like EPNW should have a brass adapter to get you away from the BSPP mess, but....

I think you are right, though it is hard to tell from the product descriptions! Devon at espressoparts said that the BSP<->compression fitting should do the trick.

EDIT - Off topic, but can you tell me the make and part number on your rotary pump there?

Finally found time to pull it out- there is a big CMA sticker on it, as well as a smaller blue one that says "NSI component N009149." Stamped into the metal are these two #s: PA104 and F98. Hope that means something to you!

The pump shaft was frozen, now it turns with a wrench but not by hand. Hmmm... what to do?

Henry

[jesawdy]

Finally found time to pull it out- there is a big CMA sticker on it, as well as a smaller blue one that says "NSI component N009149." Stamped into the metal are these two #s: PA104 and F98. Hope that means something to you!

Yes, it is a Fluid-O-Tech, balanced bypass, in the neighborhood of 145 lph or 45 gph, see here, see PA104.

The pump shaft was frozen, now it turns with a wrench but not by hand. Hmmm... what to do?

Try filling the pump head with descale solution or straight vinegar. Turn the shaft, let it soak, rinse, repeat, see if it improves. (EDIT - When you finish, try to run the pump via the motor and flush with water, perhaps with a temporary output to a bucket. Don't leave straight vinegar in there.)

[cannonfodder]

It is probably the pump impeller, and not the pump motor. As Jeff suggests, you can try putting some descale in there to see if it loosens up. Often, they have to be replaced (the pump, not the pump motor). I managed to get the one on my Faema to break loose and got away without having to replace it.

I believe the BSPP fittings use the 'bullet' ends. The parallel threads do not seal up against themselves. The inner pipe seals against a 'bullet tip' on the other end. BSPT fittings seal against themselves. The tapered threads lock up against each other. With these fittings, you can get away with a NPT fitting provided you give it a heavy wrap of Teflon tape.

The machine looks nice and clean.

[hbuchtel]

All right! After a night of soaking in de-scaler the pump turns by hand!

Thanks guys!

Dave- from your description it looks like I have BSPP ends . . . I'll take another look at it later today. I figure if I have to wait another week for parts to arrive I might as well de-scale the boiler, eh?

Henry

[cannonfodder]

It is a bit of a pain, the metric parts in a non metric country. When I rebuilt my Faema, I ordered an assortment of BSP to NPT fittings for just an occasion. Glad I did, I have used most all of them.

It never hurts to descale the machine and is good preventive maintenance. I descale all my equipment once a year just to keep ahead of any buildup. A clean machine is a happy machine. While you are waiting, you may want to remove the group gasket and drop the shower screen. They have a bad habit of getting caked up with gunk on the back while looking nice and clean on the outside. It is also a good indicator of how well it has been maintained. If it is clean, you got a well maintained machine.

Keep in mind, removing the gasket my ruin the gasket so I would get a spare just in case. I keep a spare vacuum breaker, group gasket and an assortment of thermal fuses in my part stash along with a bunch of other junk.
.

[jesawdy]

Henry-

FYI, the three rotary pumps that I've messed with are 3/8" female NPT on the pumphead, but they all had adapted out to something less "standard".

If you have time to kill, and the patience, you might remove some plumbing and see how bad it is scaled.

[hbuchtel]

Well, I took out the heating element (it was the easiest way to take a look in the boiler) and it is clean...



The boiler was never emptied, and by peering into the boiler I can see a 'waterline'... also there is this colorful stuff around a few of the lower boiler bolts.



If I manage not to screw things up I think I might have a fine machine on my hands!

Henry

[hbuchtel]

I got the parts from EPNW today (as UPS promised!) and hooked up the water line, plugged her in... no leaks! boiler cycles between 1 and 1.2 bar! brew pressure at 9 bar! volumetric dosing works!



Two problems, the little floating ball that shows the water level is either invisible or stuck somewhere, and there seems to be a problem with the auto boiler fill. I can hear the pump running but it didn't seem to fill ... (hard to tell without knowing the water level!) Maybe a stuck valve? Fortunately the manual fill works fine.

Tomorrow should be fun!

Henry

[cannonfodder]

You sight glass float could be scaled to the bottom to the glass. If the boiler was not emptied completely, then chances are it sat in water and had some scale form around it jamming it in the tube. When I rebuilt my Faema, the lower sight glass line was completely plugged with scale. Those sight glasses are easy to break if you decide to take it off to free the ball.

The auto fill is probably a stuck solenoid. Again it could simply be scaled shut. You can take it off the water supply line (caution, unplug the machine if you do, water in the boiler will backflow out the line and make a mess). If you want to test it, once removed you could hot wire it to an electrical outlet (provided it is a 110v solenoid). You should see the solenoid pop open and hear a distinctive click when the coil energizes. If it just hums and the solenoid stays closed you could try descaling it or just get a new one.

It looks like you got a gem of a machine, congratulations.

[OkcEspresso]

In addition to what Dave recommends, I believe the autofill solenoid is all the way in the back right (near the top) of the machine and it has a manual water shutoff just below (I think).

http://www.espressoparts.com/cate....waterinletvalves/

It is the W.287 in the above parts list.

You might double check that the water shutoff is open? It should be inline as it is in the linked diagram.

[cannonfodder]

Interesting. I have not seen a shut off valve on the autofill before, but my experience is limited. That would make sense especially if it were on the boiler side of the line. That way you could shut off the water before removing the solenoid. That way the boiler water does run out all over everything.