About to replace gaskets for first time in a Europiccola...

[pavman]

I've studied the refeathering posts for years, though I'd hoped this day would never come...

But after 4 and a half years with my (purchased new) Millennium -- even though I hoped it'd go 10 or 20 before needing a change -- I guess it's time. For one thing, my machine exhibited the same "weird la pavoni leak" as illustrated in that post of the same name. Also, very little water, if any, flows through the grouphead when the lever is raised. I've heard that could just be a dirty showerscreen, and I know that's possible, though I have cleaned the machine thoroughly after each use. (But no, I've never removed the screen to clean it before.)

I've never opened the machine up and I just hope when I do, I find the task less daunting than it now appears to me to be. Anyone have any last words of advice or encouragement?

And I'd like to know if you all think I should do anything else during this surgery. There is some rust behind the c clips. Should I deal with that? What with?

Also, in an earlier post I noted that my boiler had rotated after years of inserting the pf and twisting without applying counterforce. (I do now by holding the handle and pushing in the opposite direction while locking the pf into place). And I've turned the boiler more or less back to where it was orginally. But should I endeavor to tighten the bolts?

The instructions mention lithium grease for the chamber walls. Chamber walls? Should I also use a food friendly grease for anything else? And lastly, there are a few noticeable scuffs/scratches on the machine -- not many, but a few. Don't even know how they got there. Is it worth dealing with them, and what's best to use?

Thoughts on any or all, and on anything else related would be most appreciated.

Thanks very much.

[caeffe]

search under refeathering the peacock for step by step on replacing the gaskets

use DOW 111 - orphanespresso.com has small tubes. the small tube should last you years.

[mayhew]

Honestly, it's relatively easy, esp with the step by step pictures available here. Take your time, don't be in a hurry and try not to get interrupted too much. Also, if you can lay out the parts in the order that you pulled them out and/or take pictures that will help a lot when you need to reassemble.

Go ahead and remove the shower screen. There will be a lot of junk in there.

The boiler is not held in place by bolts. Rather, the bottom of the boiler screws into the top portion and the base in sandwiched between the two. It might be worth tightening it again by hand (or block of wood and hammer) but once those seals get old they contract a bit and also become pretty hard, which makes really locking the boiler down hard.

Use a food safe lubricant on any work you do.

I wouldn't worry about the scratches. I'm not even sure how you would deal with that given the chrome surface.

[jamhat]

I opened my Gaggia Factory (basically same as La Pavoni) about a month ago. I had one of the problems that you had. When I raised the lever, hardly any water came out. I had read somewhere that it can be caused by the piston coming unscrewed from the rod that is raised and lowered by the lever. That's exactly what it was. I simply needed to rescrew the piston onto the rod (and it was obviously loose).

I was surprised at how easy it is to get into the group. Just follow the instructions in "Refeathering the Peacock" and you will be fine. Using a flat-head screwdriver to pop off the c-clips worked like a charm! Just be careful to not loose any parts!

BTW: I am not an especially handy person, but it was still pretty straight forward - even fun.

Let us know how it goes!

James

[pavman]

Thanks a lot for your advice and encouragement! I'm actually looking forward to doing it! Almost.

Plus, I've now gone nearly a week without espresso/cappuccino, and almost that long without any coffee of any kind... I know. I know.

But one thing about James' experience gives me pause. He found that the piston just needed tightening. If that's the case with mine, should I still go ahead and replace gaskets and seals? I already have the kit, but it'd be silly to do if it wasn't warranted, wouldn't it? And I just feel, don't ask me why, that the group gasket is fine.

It has been pointed out to me that I wouldn't get that leak by the piston rod when the lever is raised if the gasket there didn't need replacing... I don't know, James, if you ever experienced a similar leak, or if lack of water flow -- a symptom I have as well -- was your only problem.

Anyway, if only one seal or gasket looks bad, should I still change them all? And how do you deal with rust behind the c-clips? I wonder if that's a common problem.

[mayhew]

After 4 years your gaskets need to be replaced. I think I've done the job just about every year I've had mine (4). Unless your handle falls back down on its own, you need to replace gaskets. You're already under the hood, so to speak, might as well do it.

[pavman]

Shows how much I don't know. I didn't realize that's an indication. Thing is, the lever does go down on its own, though probably not all the way down. So...?

I mean, I take your point, and since I'm under the hood, I'll do it. But, what do you make of a lever going down on its own, but not all the way? Last time I'll ask.

[mayhew]

Not sure about part way. Again, probably worn. The operating invironment of an LP is just bad for rubber. Lots of heat, changing temps, no lubrication. You're going to have the whole thing apart and being doing every bit of the labor you would be to replace the gaskets, plus you have the kit. The piston gaskets are a minor hassle but needle nose pliers really help to position them correctly.

Afterwards you'll have a non-leaking, glass smooth machine. Why *wouldn't* you?

[pavman]

will post a longer entry when the saga is over, but I replaced them, put it back together, it looks great, lever moves very smoothly and -- NO WATER COMES OUT WHEN I RAISE IT!

???

PLEASE HELP!

[mayhew]

We'll need more information than that. Does the machine seem to be heating up properly, eg can you get steam from the wand?

[pavman]

Thank goodness you guys are back -- been a sleepless night!

Yes, the machine seems to be working perfectly, except for this. Heats up in the proper time, cycles. I've filled it up with water twice and tried it. The first time, the steam pressure wasn't the best when I opened the valve to release false pressure. The second time, though, the pressure was great -- got over an ounce of water just from bleeding the wand!

Both times, nothing out of the grouphead when I raised the lever.

The gaskets are on correctly, the movement of the lever is almost as good as it was when the machine was brand new. Very smooth, though it does sometimes squeak just a little when it gets near the very the top. But the action is amazing on the downward stroke. If I were to let go of it in the top position, it would snap down!

The only other thing I can think of is the grouphead insert, into which the siphon tube screws. It really looked pretty good, but I thought initially it was a gasket and wondered if it should be replaced. I tried to peel it off, and hurt it a bit -- but really just a tiny bit. It's stilll flush agaist the machine when you screw the group onto the boiler. And there's no leaking.

Wait, there is one leak by the nut that's next to the steam wand knob. That's happened before and is usually corrected by tightening that nut, although that makes turning the knob tougher. I didn't replace the gasket in the steam wand assembly because I couldn't figure out how to get it apart.

But I don't think this would be related to the complete lack of water coming from the grouphead, as the machine has functioned very well in the past even with the minor leak -- really, dripping -- described just above.

So, will I be able to get back to caffeineating soon?

[mayhew]

I'm not entirely sure what to tell you. Perhaps the piston moved? Did you get the handle reattached properly? (notice the holes are not centered on the handle)

Assuming the machine is outwards, physically reassembled properly I'd pull it apart again and reassemble. It's hard to imagine the siphon tube or gasket are are the culprit. I suspect something in the grouphead and/or assembly thereof. If you did it right the first time you'd be one up on me

[pavman]

Huh. Well, your questions prompt me to mention a couple of things I was going to discuss in an overview once the machine was up and running.

First, I was never able to completely remove the handle! Got all the c clips and the lower pin out without much hassle, but I could never get the upper pin out. Later, when I went back to the diagram, this upper pin appears to also have some sort of sleeve over it. Not really sure... Suffice it to say, I could never get that upper pin out, so while it made doing the repairs with the handle still attached at the top tough, there was never any danger of reattaching it incorrectly.

(Although when I first put the piston back in, I forgot that of course the hole has to line up so that you can push the lower pin through. The pin wasn't going through and I realized I hadn't lined up the piston right. Covered the threaded top with towel and used a wrench to gently turn the piston so that the pin could go through). It couldn't make any difference to rotate the piston exactly 180 degrees, could it?

Just went back to the Refeathering post and looked at this again:

"With the lock nuts removed it is now time to remove the handle. With pliers, carefully remove the lock washers and the two pins should easily push out. Please note the position of the two holes on the handle since it is possible to install them upside down which will result in water not entering the group head. Higher hole in the back and lower in the front."

But that error is impossible in my case, since I never got the lever off, right?

Now, if I do go back in and take it apart again, which I guess I'll have to, is there any good way to get the grouphead gasket off without cutting it? I've got the new one on there now, so obviously, I'd hate to sacrifice it. And I don't think I can use the pf wiggle trick, because with no water flowing through, I'm not building up the pressure I'd need for the wiggle. Is that right?

Here's one other curious thing. I didn't replace the gasket that goes around the outside of the grouphead -- I'm not talking about the big one that goes on after you put back the insert screen. That one is the one I want to get out unharmed. But apparently on the Millennium, there's an extra, thinner gasket that goes on the outside of the grouphead, before you put the insert screen back.

I did try it, but it seemed it wouldn't be possible to fit both the insert screen and the final gasket that goes around it.

More importantly, though this is a Millennium, this gasket did not appear when I took it apart. There was a metal black ring circling the grouphead where it would seem that gasket would go, but no rubber gasket.

Sorry this was so long. Maybe the answer is lurking somewhere within?...

[mayhew]

1) Ok, so you didn't turn the handle upside down (which I did yesterday!). That's a plus, removes a variable, although I do find it odd it's stuck in there. My machine is the same age as yours and mine comes out with no problem. But whatever, ignore that for the moment.

2) The gasket you're talking about but couldn't find seals the plastic grouphead shaft to the outer metal casing. It sits above the PF screen gasket. I've only changed mine once and even then it didn't need it. It seems limited wear and tear since it doesn't move. I posted a pic (December?) on how I removed mine with a fairly obscure tool.

3) I wonder if perhaps in rotating your piston shaft 180 degrees you simply unscrewed it from the piston. That would be my guess at this point.

4) As to getting the PF screen gasket out there are a few ways. Probably the easiest, in your case, would be to use a rubber mallet on the piston shaft and gently tap on it till it pops the screen out. The other thing would be to soak the screen in very hot water for awhile and then pry out the screen with a spoon.

Once you get the piston out stick a screwdriver in the piston shaft hole and turn the piston by hand as tight as you can reasonably get it. I've done that and never had a problem with it coming loose again.

[pavman]

Thanks! Just to clarify, I didn't rotate the piston 180 degrees. I was wondering if it might help if I did. That is, if I turned it around, could that in any way help? My gut says, no, that it makes no difference.

As to the possibility the piston is loose, anything's possible, of course, but I made sure it was screwed in tight before I put it back into the group.

[mayhew]

Right, but you rotated the shaft the piston is on, right? I suspect that loosened the piston up. I'd use a screwdriver thru the hole rather than a wrench next time, BTdub.

[pavman]

I see. I really didn't have to turn it much to get the hole lined up. And I may have even turned it in a direction that would've tightened the piston, not loosened it.

Still, I hope you're right! I'd love to see the piston loose when I open it, tighten it up, and find I'm back to torturing myself about microfoam and latte art! Will report back.

Not sure about your screwdriver suggestion, though. I can use that to turn the piston rod?

[mayhew]

Yeah, just put it thru the hole and turn.

I'm not saying it will fix your problem but it's the only thing that comes to mind. Regardless, taking it apart may well help you find whatever is wrong with it.

[pavman]

Another development. It looks like the damage I did -- actually it was a friend who otherwise was very helpful -- to the grouphead insert was a bit more than cosmetic. I include a link to the part here, available on Stefano's site, just so everyone knows what I'm talking about. This is what the water inlet, or siphon tube screws into.

http://espressocare.com/Qstore/Qs...E=GroupHead+Insert

Anyway, my friend tried to pull it off, back when I thought it was a gasket, and today about 1/5th of the perimeter broke off. The seal is definitely compromised though it was a "perfect" break. If there's a food friendly water resistant glue out there, it could easily be reattached. Or, do I just need to buy another, and might a hardware store have this, or must it be special ordered? Not that Espressocare isn't great, it's just annoying to have to order one part. Plus, I'll have to wait yet another week to get the machine back on its feet!

I read on a troubleshooting page that a broken or worn grouphead insert could be the cause of no water flowing to the grouphead. But would it really prevent all water from coming through, as is the case with mine?

If I do have to replace it, how do I get the old one out? (It's screwed all the way in, with the top flat against the metal. Nothing for a wrench to grab on to. What would you use?)

[mayhew]

I've broken that piece too. I broke it because I broke the siphon tube at the threads Anyways, take a pair of needle nose pliers, stick a nose in each hole and gently turn. I cannot remember if you stick them in adjacent holes or opposing. My experience was that one way worked really well and the other way destroyed it. Tread carefully.