58mm basket volume??

[ron45]

The double shot filter basket that came with my Expobar holds too much coffee. That is, if I want to use the basket rim to level the dose. I can get it below the line in the basket but not low enough so it doesn't contact the shower screen. My grinder is a Rocky doserless and I am currently grinding at a setting of 8 or 9 which means nothing because Rancilio can't seem to make a grinder that you can calibrate to zero on the scale. My burrs touch at about 3. Suffice it to say that the coffee is pretty finely ground and I'm tamping at over 50 lbs pressure to get it down to the line. SO...can you buy 58mm double shot filter baskets that hold less that about 18 grams of coffee. That's about what it takes to fill the current basket. It's like the coffee lobby got to their basket maker. Or maybe they let Rancilio make them.

Ron

[malachi]

I don't understand your problem.

Is the problem that you feel that 18 grams is too much coffee?
Is the problem that you're worried about the fact that coffee contacts the shower screen once you've dosed, distributed and tamped?


For what it's worth... with some coffees I dose in excess of 20 grams in a double basket.

There is no golden rule.

[HB]

I dose by volume and adjust to get the best extraction rather than worrying about the ridge's relation to the top of the puck.'As a point of reference, the surface of the puck is usually slightly below the line, though I check by running my finger along the rim of the basket with the tamper in place -- it's very easy to feel even the slightest unlevel tamp that way, much more accurately than you can judge visually.

But if you want a smaller double basket, below is a 12 gram basket that's available online:


18 and 12 gram basket

[ron45]

For someone relatively new to espresso making [ I had a pavoni lever machine in the 70's, but used a whirly grinder, go figure ] but these days, 35 years later, I'm on my second semi automatic machine. To get a handle on the art/science of making a decent shot there needs to be some givens. Such as 14 grams of coffee, this much water, this much pressure....you get the idea.... and somewhere along the way I read that the coffee puck should not touch the screen in the group. I thought this was in Schomer's writing somewhere but I can't find the article. Stands to reason tho, if there's a little room there the coffee can more easily expand for a more efficient extraction. Isn't that why we spent all this money on our machines? One of the other standards is you level to the rim of the basket. Doing that with the expobar basket makes it impossible to clear the shower head even with a 50 lb tamp according to my bathroom scale. I realize that as time goes by all the givens can be stretched under the right circumstances but for now there needs to be a few constants in what I'm doing so I can vary one thing at a time.

Doesnt anyone know of a 58 mm basket that when filled for proper leveling and tamping will hold something like 14 grams of coffee?

Ron

[quar]

For someone relatively new to espresso making [ I had a pavoni lever machine in the 70's, but used a whirly grinder, go figure ] but these days, 35 years later, I'm on my second semi automatic machine. To get a handle on the art/science of making a decent shot there needs to be some givens. Such as 14 grams of coffee...

You're worrying about a specific volume too much...Worry about consistency. Try slightly overfilling the basket, distributing the coffee, and striking off the excess. As long as you do this the same way every time, you do have a constant.

Mike

[malachi]

Such as 14 grams of coffee, this much water, this much pressure....you get the idea.... and somewhere along the way I read that the coffee puck should not touch the screen in the group.

I understand the desire - and the comfort level this would bring.
But (sadly) it's pretty much mythology.
There are certain coffees which (on certain machines) taste best (to certain people) when dosed 14grams.

As Dan said, it's best to start by simply dosing by volume and adjusting to taste (on a per coffee basis).


I'd love to be able to tell you "buy this basket, it will hold 14 grams" but the trouble is that, while it might hold 14 grams of one coffee, that is no guarantee that it will hold 14 grams of another coffee. To illustrate - weigh a cup of roasted Monsooned Malabar. Now weight a cup of roasted Tanzania Peaberry. Same volume... different weights.

I don't know what size the stock Expobar basket is. The general continuum seems to go like (largest to smallest):
- LM triple
- LM double
- Faema double
- CME double

[barry]

One of the other standards is you level to the rim of the basket. Doing that with the expobar basket makes it impossible to clear the shower head even with a 50 lb tamp according to my bathroom scale. I realize that as time goes by all the givens can be stretched under the right circumstances but for now there needs to be a few constants in what I'm doing so I can vary one thing at a time.

leveling to the rim isn't a standard. how you dose and level depends upon your machine. some machines have a showerscreen which protrudes further into the basket than other machines. i have no idea if the expobars are like this, too. if you change the basket size, it has no effect on how you have to dose relative to the rim because this is a top-down problem, not a bottom-up problem. when dosing for the pavoni, i would routinely give the top of the puck a concave shape (scraping down into the basket with my arc'd finger). for other machines, i will give the puck a slight convex shape. these are shapes before tamping, btw.

also, just to be clear, the line around the inside of the portafilter basket is not a "fill line".... it's a spring retention groove.

[ron45]

Thanks Malachi, Quar and Barry, I appreciate your help. Barry seems to be most in tune with my original point which is so central to this issue as I perceive it. The expanding coffee puck. As I stated initially, I am the influenced by what I read on the any subject and my own personal experience. So till I learn something different, it seems like a good idea to allow room for the puck to expand. It just happens that if I don't get the coffee tamped at least a 1/16" or so below the retention spring indentation the shot starts out with the puck smashed against the screen. You can feel it as you lock in the portafilter. Removing it before the shot will confirm it as the top of the puck looks like a disaster area. Do we not tamp in order to make the top of the puck level in relation to the bottom of the basket to present even resistance to the flow of water? Kind of an important part of the process no? So as I see it, I'm not 'too worried' about a specific volume of coffee as I am about a specific space for the puck to expand. Will someone please address the veracity of this question? It is central to why I'm here today. Maybe this isn't correct...it would be helpful to know.

Ron

[malachi]

Some coffees benefit from certain amounts of "headspace" in the basket.
There are coffees that seem to perform (to my taste) best with a large such gap (Illy, Vivace both come to mind).
Others behave best (again to my taste) with little to no gap (Stumptown, Hines come to mind).
But some Australians will tell you that all coffees are best if updosed to the point where the screen is being crushed and some Italians will tell you that all coffees are best if you fill the basket halfway.

[JonR10]

Maybe this isn't correct...it would be helpful to know.

Hi Ron,

It's just my opinion, but I believe that if the puck touches the screen locking in then the shot is ruined. I won't even try anymore if I feel the coffee hitting the screen when I lock in because the extraction dynamic will be messed up.

SO - what's a homebarista to do?

You could try getting a triple basket and bottomless PF. I have found that there is more compaction in the triples so the puck surface ends up lower.

OR

You could dose less coffee and level the dose another way. I underdose my double baskets, I measure my beans by volume before grinding and then dose it all into the basket (have your grinder brush handy). The I tap the basket lightly, distribute with my finger, either NSEW or ina circular motion kinda like stockfleth's. Then tamp straight down.

I tend to use a smaller dose and longer extraction time to get ristretto shots. Most often I run just under 1.5 ounces in about 30 seconds. For "regular" espresso my shots are almost always short of 2 ounces because of my light dosing. That's OK with me, I'd rather drink 2 little ones than 1 big one (most days anyway).

One advantage to underdosing is it's less mess and less wasted coffee.

[malachi]

... I measure my beans by volume before grinding...

Really?
How does that work?
Different volumes of whole beans are going to result in different volumes of grounds. In fact, the same beans on different days are going to result in different volumes once ground.

[JonR10]

Different volumes of whole beans are going to result in different volumes of grounds.

That's why whenever I change the blend or bean I may have to adjust the volume I measure.
The volume adjustment could be using level measuring spoons or slightly rounded.

In any case, as long as I don't overdose then I often get fairly decent results.

In fact, the same beans on different days are going to result in different volumes once ground.

I have noticed the grounds bring more or less "fluffy" depending on conditions, but in my experience it seems that the post-tamped volume doesn't vary enough to bother me. And if the puck surface is too high, I make an adjustment on the next shot.

[malachi]

So why not just dose by volume post grind?

[JonR10]

So why not just dose by volume post grind?

Clean grinder/doser after every shot

Can change coffees for consecutive shots

Practically zero wasted coffee

EDIT - I also believe that post-grind volume varies more for conditions (humidity) than pre-grind or post-packed volume



To each his own. All I'm saying is it works for me.
Maybe next month I'll be doing something else....

[cannonfodder]

I don't measure pre or post dose. I can tell how much coffee is in the basket based on the distance from the top of the sides of my tamper and top of the basket. When I tamp, I put the handle in the center of my palm and fingers around the top outer edge of the tamper. That way my finger tips touch the top of the basket when I tamp.

[Toxbrew]

I too have a Pulser. I have found that I have your problem only when I do the 2 tamp method, ie put some in, tamp, add more then tamp again. I can tell when it is against the screen. As I understand the issue, and your question, if the puck get disturbed, either the surface, or the body through torsional disturbance, then you create channeling, correct? My suggestions may be obvious, but here goes:
1. Are you grinding too coarse, then over tamping. I would assume a finer grind would pack down more at 30 pounds.
2. Is the shower screen set all the way up in?
3. When you remove the pf, is the surface smooth, or roughed up?
4. Perhaps try this. Use a finger slightly bowed downward to create a slightly cupped leveling. Tamp at 5 pounds, then tap the sides, then tamp at 30.
5. Gaskets in my experience usually swell as they get older, but has yours perhaps shrunk? Allowing the pf to go higher up?
6. Mine locks into place at a pf handle position something less than straight out ( more like 730 when viewed from above. Are you really torquing it on tightly?

Good luck, scott

[ron45]

Thanks everyone for the input. Scott and Barry both have a workable solution...the crooked finger to distribute the grounds below the rim of the pf. This works just fine for me and allows me to avoid cramming the coffee against the group screen.

Ron