1st gen Anita - Upgrading steam & water arms & valves to 360 pivot like 2nd gen?

[ciaocaffe]

Ok, just thinking ahead, of possible attempting this upgrade if possible (which I highly think IS possible).

Many know that when Anita got her upgrade, a major improvement were the 360degree swivel/pivoting ball-valve based steam and water arms.

I have searched and searched the two main forums, CG and HB, also the net and only briefly seen one person asking about this.

One poster replied to their inquiry by saying surely it would be possible to do the swap out.

The original inquirer indicated they then contacted CC and they mentioned it was not possible.

But honestly, I still think it is so.

I've studied and studied dozens of photos of the Anita and other machines with the 2nd gen. desired valves (I still do not have an Anita in possession at this time, but assuming I obtain a 1st gen Anita, I will highly be desiring this upgrade; for both looks and function).

Some of the other machines I have been observing are the Vibiemme Domobar and Expobar series (especially the latter as their valves look quite similar to 2nd gen Anita's). Their have parts are also available as opposed to Anita's.

I also noticed that on quite a few 2nd gen Anita's that do have the nice valves/arms, the location where the 1st gen Anita's arms were have been plugged with 2 black plastic plugs (I will choose polished stainless round end bolts therefore, I see it as more or less a relocation mod with little to no cutting, grinding, etc. most like none.

I am sure the inside, how the valves eventually attach to the boiler, are more or less the same in both machines, as they still both basically have the same parts and sizes.

Clearly the housing is the same.
Distance from the housing to the boiler I would imagine is the same as well.

So I see it as a matter of getting either Expobar valve/arms parts or Vibiemme, etc. (as CC does not sell these Anita parts for some reason. Speaking of which, where DO you get parts for Anita when you need them?! I do not see that many at CC surprisingly).

Well that's what I have to offer for my take on things.

I am highly curious why this is not more popular! I am sure there are quite a bit of 1st gen Anita's out there and I am sure quite a few would want the nicer valves/arms.

So for the people out there that have an Anita, 1st or 2nd gen, and have poked around inside, what do you think?

Unless I hear some solid reasons why this might not be possible or I see for myself, I will be most likely attempting this mod assuming I get a 1st gen Anita and can get proper valves/stems at reasonable cost.

And if I am successful, looks like I may be the first to post this upgrade (based on my lack of results searching the net).

So I thought I'd throw it out there as some preparation for possibly doing this in the not-so-distant future. A thread to set in motion some brainstorming if there is some possibility of this upgrade, which I believe there is.

Thanks all!

UPDATE: Er, well I just noticed the message in regards to avoiding cross-posting (link).

Many of our members frequent multiple coffee sites. Please avoid cross-posting your question, or mention the other site(s) to avoid repetitive responses. This reminder message will be displayed for your first five posts. Thanks!

[quar]

Go take a look at your thread on CG. I'm the OP of the thread you referenced...Shared my thoughts.

[erics]

Mike -

I agree with what Mike said on the CG thread from a performance standpoint. It would require purchase of a new copper steam line assembly, the new steam valve assembly and a locking nut/washer to hold it in place to the front of the machine. The steam valve assembly is ~ $75 and the other parts and shipping would probably make the total bill around $100. Note also that the boilers have been improved on Anita, Vetrano, and Andreja but presumably the fitting locations have not been changed dramatically.

I, too, like the looks of the new steam valve assembly and purchased one a year or so ago. I've been enjoying the product of the machine too much to do that mod just yet.

edit - here is a pic of the valve assembly. The external threads are 1/4" BSPP while the internal threads are 1/8" BSPP.

[ciaocaffe]

Thanks you guys!

Yes, just the type of help I was looking for.

"Erics", thanks a lot for the picture and the dimensions. Really does help give me idea pre-Anita ownership.
BTW, Erics, where did you happen to get the steam valve assembly!? I'd love to inquire about it for future reference. I'd also be doing the hot water setup as well for I like symmetry of these items.
Also, any estimates on the size of the hole in the housing where the 1st gen steam/hot water wands comes out? You know, the holes that have been plugged on some 2nd gen Anita's. I think the newer 2nd Anita's simply don't have the holes there anymore.

"Quar", I read your post at the CG thread and so I have now some things to digest.

Who knows, maybe, just maybe, I may not even want to do the upgrade if I do happen to get the 1st gen Anita. Maybe things are different in person and after spending some time with her, her looks and performance may just grow on me.

I am trying to find some positives in the 1st gen setup. Maybe I'll find one or two.

But I have a feeling I'll still be itching to attempt the upgrade.

And I have been reasonable in my pricing so that's not a shock.

BTW, I was trying to find on the net or at CC, what improvements precisely were made on the Anita with her upgrade. Erics mentions a boiler upgrade as well. I wonder if this was a huge upgrade.

Actually, I'm wondering altogether if the 1st generation Anita is even up to par.

I am going now to first reply to the CG thread, then to search CG reviews for earlier ones of the 1st gen Anita and see what people have to say.

Ok, thanks for the help! I am now more armed with info to help me in this path of a potential upgrade.

[quar]

Like I said on CG, I'd be surprised if adding the newer wand to an older Anita would have much of a performace impact. I, too, am interested in what improvements have been made to the boiler, but I'd imagine that they don't have a significant impact on the output of the machine.

There is really nothing lacking from the 1st gen Anita (I was one of the 1st 50 owners, so mine's as 1st gen as they come...) Now that I've rebuilt my failing valve, I can pull shots and steam just as well as the Andreja Premium and Vetrano (at least from the same timeframe). While the improvements would be nice, they are not anything that I'd want to pay extra for. You might find a better deal on a 1st gen than you would a 2nd gen, as the 1st gen machines went for $895 for the first batch to $995 afterwards. I think new machines are going for $1400. However, much of that price increase is due to the rising cost of materials and sinking dollar. There hasn't been $500 of improvement in the machine.

While yes, the new wand is nicer, there are better places to sink $100. Replacing your burrs or getting one of Eric's thermometer fittings would make a bigger impact on your espresso

Mike

[ciaocaffe]

Thanks yet again for more of the nice insight!

So I am assuming when you rebuilt your valve, it was still in keeping with the 1st gen stock valve? Or did you manage to upgrade like I have mentioned?

Weighing out everything, there is still of course a chance I may pass on the upgrade, but I don't know. Who knows, maybe there's a hidden advantage to the first gen setup!

But, I think it's just one of those things that would bother me not having "the cool new valves" or whatever. Ok, probably not reasonable, but just one of those things.

BTW, I just sent an email to CC. So we'll see what comes from that.

And thankfully, I have just recently added new burrs, so all set in that department. Grinder completely up to par.
Also already set aside funds for the thermocouple or digital thermometer in the hex bolt. Although I am not too keen on the plastic type looks and cheap LCD type display of the thermometer. IMHO really clashes against the beauty of the Anita. I wish there was a cool display like that of PID's. Or like a small stainless housed thermometer with brighter LED type numbers.
But that's off subject from this thread. I'll decide which route to go later.

Ok, back to researching more.

Thanks again for the help.

[chris]

Boiler upgrade. We were not happy with the original boilers and insisted that Quick Mill find a new manufacturer. The problem with the original boilers was one specific solder joint that while bench testing we would find a tiny leak about 2 percent of the time. We would then have to change out the boiler. A lot of labor that we do not get paid to do. It was one of those things that if the joint was soldered properly to begin with there is no problem. In my opinion 2% is way too high. It was not that way for a long time. We have now sold close to 1000 machines with the new boiler and have not had a leak, not one. The new boilers are pressure tested by the manufacturer prior to shipping. The old boilers we suppose to be tested as well but it was obvious to me that either they were not testing them or their test was ineffective. Shame on them they lost all of Quick Mill's business. We do not advertise that we have "Hundreds of Machines to Choose From." We focus on selling a limited variety of machines and constantly strive to make them the best machine in their class. What consumers sometime do not understand is that suppliers have their ups and downs. What I mean by that is one manufacturer might make a more reliable pressure stat lets say for five years and for no apparent reason their quality goes down hill and their competitors quality improves. We watch these things and make the changes when called for. We have changed boiler manufacturers, pressure stat manufacturers, and even solenoid valve manufacturers. That doesn't mean the boiler in your machine machine or the pressure stat in your machine is not as good as the one we may currently be using. It simply means that the manufacturer of the component, that was used in your machine, no longer makes components up to our standards any longer.

About the email you sent, I answered you an hour and a half ago.

[ciaocaffe]

Thanks Chris.
Insightful.

So aside from the bit about addressing the boiler issue, the main upgrade was to the steam-hot water valves/stems and not much anything else.

Your reply over at the CG thread discusses the upgrade matter at hand, so anyone interested in hearing from the horses mouth so to speak and can trickle over that way.

So now I wait to find out if I'll be getting a 1st gen or 2nd Anita, check her out, wait to hear from the CC parts dept for a price for the parts, make my decision and then report back to the thread(s).

Thanks everyone for the help.

[TimEggers]

Are the steam valves really that important to you? If so then why? The Anita is a very capable machine and should serve you nicely. It'd be a shame to hack her all up for something perhaps superficial.

[ciaocaffe]

I don't see it that extreme.
I don't think she'd be getting all hacked up.
I wouldn't be drilling new holes. Just use the existing ones. That covers everything on the external side.

Then if I can obtain or configure the proper angled/size piping from valve to boiler, then all is set. Not too bad.

IMHO, comparing the two looks, with the 1st gen., the separation of wands and valves and the free space abound, sort of seem like they're just on their own too much. Hard to explain. And with the 2nd gen setup, everything looks-wise seems to be more filled it.
Now that's just looks. And it may seem obsessive, but afterall, I'm sure many of us went the Anita route (or whichever machine they prefer) with appearance being a strong determinant. Especially when appearance is a key feature on these e61/polished stainless type machines.
So IMHO, it is fairly important to me.

But again, at this moment, I don't have an actually Anita to stare at in person in order to determine after a while if the looks of the 1st gen. may just be fine. Like if it grows on me after a bit. Maybe the simplicity look to it, might work for me.

Then second comes function. Not necessarily performance as surely yes, that could be almost the same.

But function. Depending on the setup or how you operate, being restricted to particular movement of the 1st gen wands could be a bit of a problem. If you have something right close to the left side of 1st gen Anita, then moving that wand out to the left (it's only movement available) to steam would pose a problem as something, a wall, grinder, etc would be right next to it, but, if you had the pivoting valves/arms of the 2nd gen, you could move that want out towards you more and get the pitcher in there to steam.

Also, IIRC, the valves (compression I think, or non?) on the 1st gen are not repairable (the need replacement in their entirety) while the valves on second gen Anita are repairable.

I'm sure there are other good reasons for upgrading, but those are the main.

So IMHO, I see the upgrade worthy.

Of course, if I came across a used 2nd gen Anita for decent money, I'd snag her up and wouldn't even me addressing all of this.

But it may also help in the future anyone who has a 1st gen Anita, can not upgrade to 2nd gen Anita and are curious about upgrading the valves-wands.

Thanks again for the help.

[quar]

The valve seats are not replacable. The shaft upon which they are attached to is certainly replaceable. You can get the part at www.espressocare.com for $15. There isn't much to the valve assembly but the housing, 4 fittings, the knob and it's nut, and the shaft. I just did a rebuild of my 1st gen steam valve for a grand total of $15 for part and $3 for a few grams of Dow 111 lubricant.

I'm also not entirely sure that the Anita has the same valves as the Andreja Premium. From looking at the pics and descriptions on their respective pages at CC, only the Andreja Premium mentions having non-compression valves. If I had to guess, I'd say that 2G Anita has compression valves in a different configuration.

Mike