Chris...I can't begin to understand all the ramifications of your testing, but I can say that your LOVE for the ART of espresso shines through all the technical conversation. A most thoughtful and entertaining overview/review.
While I believe I understand Ken's questioning of temp stability from idle, or shot to shot, valid as it may be ( I deal with temperature issues as an Anita owner) I appreciate your answer that "what's in the cup" is, for YOU (and me) the final word. If we take it to it's conclusion, my guess is that if the 1st pull from, say 1-2 hours idle...the normal amount of "rest' between pulls for us home espresso folk...is as good as the 2nd pull, then it would make sense that indeed the GS3 is maintaining a solid temp as seen on the read-out...+ or- the stated limits.
If I could justify the $$$ right now (I need another #1 song!...at least...) I'd buy the GS3, AND follow your advice to get some professional training...Schomer, et al....though you and others here, on CG and alt.coffee have given me so much FREE help I feel guilty....sort of....
The pleasure I get when a friend tastes a particularly well pulled shot and goes WOW....priceless

IMAWriter wrote: (snippage)

While I believe I understand Ken's questioning of temp stability from idle, or shot to shot, valid as it may be ( I deal with temperature issues as an Anita owner) I appreciate your answer that "what's in the cup" is, for YOU (and me) the final word. If we take it to it's conclusion, my guess is that if the 1st pull from, say 1-2 hours idle...the normal amount of "rest' between pulls for us home espresso folk...is as good as the 2nd pull, then it would make sense that indeed the GS3 is maintaining a solid temp as seen on the read-out...+ or- the stated limits.

Rob,

I just want to clarify, for the umpteenth time, that I'm not speaking as someone who is convinced that tight temperature control is essential to great shotmaking. This is a VERY OPEN question to me at this point in time. I personally think that you probably can make great shots without tight temperature control, but then what do I know?

The point that I am making is that claims are being made for this machine and others that assume that tight temperature control is being obtained. By tight temperature control I am not addressing whether this machine can settle down into some stable repeatable shot profile and temperature during a long shot run. What I am addressing is whether you can walk up to this machine after a random idle period and get a shot at the temperature you are asking the machine to make the shot at. Can you then bump the intended shot temp up by 0.3 degrees F, and reasonably expect that the shot will in fact be delivered to you at a temperature of 0.3 degrees F higher than before? What is the error band in shot temps that are delivered vs. what is requested on the input panel? If the error is ± 0.7 degrees F and you ask for 0.3F more or less, then what exactly are you actually getting in your cup?

If one is making claims about tasting minor brew temp differences based on simply telling the machine to change the shot temperature by these tiny increments, but has not tested whether the machine CAN REALLY DO THIS, than it is really not proven that your observations are due to actual small delivered shot temperature differences because you don't know if the machine is really delivering the ordered shot temps.

Does any of this make sense? Am I just spewing out hot air that no one else thinks is worth considering?

ken

Ken Fox wrote:Rob,

I just want to clarify, for the umpteenth time, that I'm not speaking as someone who is convinced that tight temperature control is essential to great shotmaking. This is a VERY OPEN question to me at this point in time. I personally think that you probably can make great shots without tight temperature control, but then what do I know?

You know plenty...I always enjoy your lazer-like wit and wisdom ;>D

The point that I am making is that claims are being made for this machine and others that assume that tight temperature control is being obtained. By tight temperature control I am not addressing whether this machine can settle down into some stable repeatable shot profile and temperature during a long shot run. What I am addressing is whether you can walk up to this machine after a random idle period and get a shot at the temperature you are asking the machine to make the shot at. Can you then bump the intended shot temp up by 0.3 degrees F, and reasonably expect that the shot will in fact be delivered to you at a temperature of 0.3 degrees F higher than before? What is the error band in shot temps that are delivered vs. what is requested on the input panel? If the error is ± 0.7 degrees F and you ask for 0.3F more or less, then what exactly are you actually getting in your cup?

According to Chris, an uncommonly good shot of espresso


Does any of this make sense?

Yes

Am I just spewing out hot air that no one else thinks is worth considering?

Yes, in making your point you make perfect sense. However, there are times, and this may be one of those times, that making sense, i.e. using 'empirical" data/logic, etc may just have to be set aside, as the human equation takes over....according to Chris and his accomplices, the GS3 just makes dern fine espresso, pretty much every time. If, in fact La Maz has to "tone down' claims of temperature invincibility, so be it. I don't believe it will make any difference to those who wish to own it.
by the way, this is the first time I've had a chance to go "mano a mano" with you...as usual, you are a gentleman.
And Dan K/Chris T, if you're reading this, a belated Happy New Year!

Ken Fox wrote:If one is making claims about tasting minor brew temp differences based on simply telling the machine to change the shot temperature by these tiny increments, but has not tested whether the machine CAN REALLY DO THIS, than it is really not proven that your observations are due to actual small delivered shot temperature differences because you don't know if the machine is really delivering the ordered shot temps.

Does any of this make sense? Am I just spewing out hot air that no one else thinks is worth considering?

ken

There is a lot of common sense that supports your suggestion that minute temp differences are not all that critical. For example, until quite recently, a good Barista could expect to hit the same shot starting temp within 1-1.5 deg F. If a .3 deg difference in start temp makes a dramatic change in taste, then what does this say about the quality and consistency of the results the rest of the (non GS3 and temp stabilized uber-machine owning) world is achieving? Maybe we are all deluding ourselves about how good our espresso is and we are all on the brink of a whole new era of quality, as Chris T. suggests.


Mark

Ken Fox wrote:I just want to clarify, for the umpteenth time, that I'm not speaking as someone who is convinced that tight temperature control is essential to great shotmaking.

The key part of your statement here is "great shotmaking." What's "great?" It all hangs on the answer to that question, doesn't it?

Nick wrote:The key part of your statement here is "great shotmaking." What's "great?" It all hangs on the answer to that question, doesn't it?

I guess everyone has his own definition. For me, it would be a shot that grabbed my attention, something that was absolutely phenomenal, in the same league as one of the best wines you've ever drunk, or like a terrific shot you remember from an outstanding cafe. I've been privileged to have a few remarkable shots in my life, and a lot of good and ordinary ones (and sink shots) as well.

What's yours?

ken

Ken Fox wrote:I guess everyone has his own definition. For me, it would be a shot that grabbed my attention, something that was absolutely phenomenal, in the same league as one of the best wines you've ever drunk, or like a terrific shot you remember from an outstanding cafe.

What's yours?

ken

The benchmark for me was the shot prepared for me last summer at Murky (DC)...though my shots are flavorful, I've not approached the mouth feel of that shot...as I understand it, though, a $1000 HX(run by a competant person, will still have a harder time getting that "texture thing" than the same person pulling a shot on a La Marzocco....at least that's what I like telling myself! ;>D

I believe Ken's point is being misunderstood.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Ken, but it appears that he is simply stating that, independent of the validity of the CONCEPT of micro-adjustments of brew temperature and their effects on the quality of the shot, there are very large claims being made by the manufacturer about the ability to dial in such micro-adjustments. Given these claims and given a reviewer/tester who has the equipment, willingness, and most importantly free time (if one such exists), it would be appropriate and relevant to independently evaluate the ability of the machine to produce targeted brew temperatures in situations that do not involve near-continuous use. It seems entirely relevant to the home user (me) to know if the machine can hit its targets after idle periods of various lengths between shots. Again, the test is not of the validity of the concept of small differences in brew temp affecting the resultant quality in the cup, but is simply of the validity of the manufacturer's claims of hyper-precision in temperature control.

I, too, would like to commend the time and hard work put into the original review. Thank you!

Ranger144

To the best of my knowledge, the manufacturer has made no claims about the performance of this machine. All the claims have been made by folks like myself or Greg or Andy or Mark after independently testing the machine in question.