I had not planned on it being in storage for more than a month. I can keep a jar a bit longer just for testing sake. It is Espresso Classic from Rocket Coffee, the remainder of my 5 pound Titan Grinder special delivery. I am not positive of the degas time before it went into the deep freeze. I believe it was around 5 days post roast. I packed it in glass mason jars, tightened up the rings and put them in the deep freezer.

I know they have not completely degassed because I retrieved a pint jar a couple of days ago to unthaw for Monday. The jar is pressurized now; it was not when it came out of the freezer. The beans are still degassing which is a good sign. My Fluke put the freezer at -5F.

While my testing will not be as thorough as yours, my testers are me, myself and I, and report back on the results.

That was a fascinating article. However, I did a little experiment of my own that validity of which may or may not bear upon your results. I used freshly purchased and opened LaVazza beans. I put them in vacuum jars before freezing. Approximately a month later when I had run short of my usual supply of locally obtained beans I opened one of the jar and put it in my Mazzer Mini. I gave it a couple of hours to defrost and then ground the beans. The setting on the Mazzer is unchanged from when I used LaVazza beans before. The result was that the grinds seemed to clump more and my brew pull was either too fast, or after tamping more firmly too slow and bitter.
Frankly, I am something of a newby to science of this stuff, but I am disinclined to mess around with freezing unless it is totally necessary. The LaVazza bean still make an excellent drip coffee, but for espresso I will stick to the fresh.

gitano1 wrote:That was a fascinating article. However, I did a little experiment of my own that validity of which may or may not bear upon your results. I used freshly purchased and opened LaVazza beans. I put them in vacuum jars before freezing. Approximately a month later when I had run short of my usual supply of locally obtained beans I opened one of the jar and put it in my Mazzer Mini. I gave it a couple of hours to defrost and then ground the beans. The setting on the Mazzer is unchanged from when I used LaVazza beans before. The result was that the grinds seemed to clump more and my brew pull was either too fast, or after tamping more firmly too slow and bitter.
Frankly, I am something of a newby to science of this stuff, but I am disinclined to mess around with freezing unless it is totally necessary. The LaVazza bean still make an excellent drip coffee, but for espresso I will stick to the fresh.

The Lavazza you purchased was presumably already fully degassed and beyond help by the time you bought and opened it.

I would never try to preserve something that is already gone, as it is simply too late.

In the distant past I used to buy Lavazza Super Crema in 6x2kg package boxes, so I have several years experience with the coffee you are writing about.

From my prior experience I know that it used to be considered acceptable by Lavazza to sell their valve bagged coffee as much as TWO YEARS after roasting. I know this because the "freshest" Lavazza I ever got was about 6 months old and showed 18 months remaining on the "sell by" date. In most cases, however, the coffee was considerably older before it got to me.

It takes a while to learn the impact of using truly fresh coffee on a regular basis. When you become a little more experienced with this home espresso thing, perhaps you might repeat your little "experiment" with some coffee that is actually fresh, and see what sort of results you get.


ken

I can second Ken's thoughts on Lavazza! I've only RECENTLY fully discovered the JOYS of truly FRESH coffee (I used to think that as long as I ground it just before use, it was just fine! NOT TRUE! ) I did it with Lavazza and with Illy. Now I'm heading in the direction of roasting my own! Not there YET (but getting very close to doing it!).

I bought the Lavazza because the only fresh roasted coffee available locally was Starbucks. Then I discovered Forza which has a wonderful Sicilian blend. It is five minutes from my house, so I buy a half pound at a time. What happened is that I had run out of the Forza and needed to use the Lavazza in a pinch. You are probably right. I don't believe that any coffee that is packaged and shipped from any distance can maintain the same level of freshness as one that is freshly roasted. Interestingly, though, the Lavazza does produce a rich, thick crema which I have been led to believe is a clear indicator of freshness. I suppose even that rule is subject to parsing.

gitano1 wrote: Interestingly, though, the Lavazza does produce a rich, thick crema which I have been led to believe is a clear indicator of freshness. I suppose even that rule is subject to parsing.

R O B U S T A

I know that this is a perennial topic, but for the purposes of this discussion, what containers are recommended for storage in a typical refrigerator/freezer?

hed1117 wrote:I know that this is a perennial topic, but for the purposes of this discussion, what containers are recommended for storage in a typical refrigerator/freezer?

Recommended by whom?


With the proviso that you are freezing coffee that has been freshly roasted and remains fresh, you are looking for a container that fulfills several criteria. These include:

(1) able to provide a barrier to the entry of air from the freezer;

(2) able to tolerate temperature changes between those in your freezer and those at the ambient temperature of the room;

(3) durable enough to tolerate being in the freezer for the period of time you will leave it there;

(4) appropriately sized to your usage pattern, allowing you to consume all the contents within a few days to a week, without the need to put the coffee back into the freezer because you can't consume all of it after you defrost it.

Following these 4 common sense criteria, you will find various suitable candidates. These would include the original (presumably) sealed and valved bag in which you may have bought the coffee. The valve should be taped over with scotch or other tape to prevent air exchange in the freezer, since the valves typically will freeze in either the "open" or closed positions. Please note that there are some multilayer plastic valve bags that at least in my own experience tend to delaminate and crack in the freezer and hence would not be suitable, but I've only seen this, so far, with one type of bag.

Other options would include mason type glass jars with competent sealing tops, possibly other previously used glass food product jars that seal well, and possibly Ziplock type bags, although preferably I'd use at least one inside another one out of fear that they are not thick enough for storage of more than a very short period of time. I freeze a lot of very fresh wild Alaskan salmon each summer, and I use three layers of Ziplock type bags, but then I have a pretty compulsive personality.

Regardless of what you use, it is only common sense to try to completely fill up the container if it is rigid, or to push out all the excess air if it is flexible, such as a Ziplock type bag. You don't want excess air in there which if humid might risk condensation on the beans at the time of defrosting, which potentially might have a negative impact.

ken

For freezing I use the "Vacuvin coffee saver" thingamajigs.

I typically receive 3-4 pounds of coffee and (as suggested) tape off the valve and pop in the freezer. When I'm ready to use it, I allow the bag to warm to room temp (minimizes condensation), open it, place 2/3 pounds in the Vacuvin jar and suck out the air. The remaining 1/3 pound I keep in the bag at room temp for use over the next week.

I doubt removing the oxygen helps, BUT removing the air also removes water vapor, and thus I don't worry about water condensing on my beans in the freezer. This system seems less prone to water condensation than Mason jars, but I have no experimental data to back that up.

http://www.vacuvin.nl/Vacuum_Coffee_Saver_500_g_229.html

calmaniac wrote:For freezing I use the "Vacuvin coffee saver" thingamajigs.

I typically receive 3-4 pounds of coffee and (as suggested) tape off the valve and pop in the freezer. When I'm ready to use it, I allow the bag to warm to room temp (minimizes condensation), open it, place 2/3 pounds in the Vacuvin jar and suck out the air. The remaining 1/3 pound I keep in the bag at room temp for use over the next week.

I doubt removing the oxygen helps, BUT removing the air also removes water vapor, and thus I don't worry about water condensing on my beans in the freezer. This system seems less prone to water condensation than Mason jars, but I have no experimental data to back that up.

http://www.vacuvin.nl/Vacuum_Coffee_Saver_500_g_229.html

My personal opinion, for what it is worth (and it is an opinion backed up by no research) is that coffee probably should not be frozen and refrozen again, opened and closed again. Although I have no proof that this is better, my approach is certainly no worse and is simple to execute. That would be to have a number of different sizes of containers (glass sealing jars in my case) that I fill with freshly roasted beans then freeze. If I only need a small amount of a particular coffee, then I pull out a small jar, and if I need more I take out a larger one. By having an assortment of jar sizes (many of which are leftover from consumer products such as spaghetti sauce) I can pull out what I need, defrost it in the sealed container, then use it within a week or so. Since I do travel, I'll use more of the smaller jars as trips approach, so that towards the end just before I leave, I am not having to toss a lot of unused coffee as I go out the door.

As a result, I never worry about condensation or any of the rest of this stuff, need no further equipment, and have reduced the process to something very simple and repeatable requiring essentially no effort on my part.

ken

I'm not much of a taste-tester, and I've recently been posting on the pitfalls of "The Science of Coffee". That said, I went with Ken's suggestion to freeze coffee, since I have no other choice at present. I've been getting two pounds a month of fresh beans, and popping them in the freezer. I open them daily, take out the daily ration and just squeeze the air out of the foil bag and seal it with rubberbands. The results have EXCEEDED my expectations, in that I still get good crema and flavor at the end of the month. In fact, I once got two bags that I suspect were older (couple weeks?) on arrival. The fresh beans I had frozen for a month were better than the older beans when they arrived.

Just subjective observations, but freezing seems to do the job for me here on the last frontier.

PC

I have squirreled away two pounds of coffee into the freezer to see how long I could push the envelope. I do not have any fresh coffee to compare my frozen samples with since one pound was from Rocket and the other Caffe Fresco (both no longer roasting).

The pound of Rocket I put in a one quart mason jar, filled to the top and put a fresh seal and ring on the jar to make sure it is air tight. The ambrosia from Fresco I left in the pound valve bag and taped over the one way valve to prevent it from gassing in, or out. I labeled both with the roast date (June for the Rocket and July for the Fresco) and tossed them into the back of my deep freezer (-15F).

Let me start by saying that freezing will slow the degradation of the coffee, but not stop it. A fact that is evident in the pressurized jar and valve bag that blew up to pillow proportions. Both coffees continued to outgas and age.

Since I had stashed the Rocket in a mason jar that could be resealed, I opened it after two months and removed half of the blend, resealed the jar and returned it to the freezer within moments so the beans would not unthaw. I allowed the beans to unthaw for a day while sealed in a half pound valve bag. I was surprised at how well they weathered. The crema was thick and rich at 90+% of the shot. The taste appeared to be no worse for wear. I finished off that sample within 3 days with little change in flavor.

After another month, I retrieved the other half of the Rocket sample and allowed it to unthaw in the closed mason jar. Again, I was greeted with a Pop! When I loosened the ring, the frozen beans had continued to degas. This time I drug out the sample for 5 days. As with the original sample the initial results were on par with the first sample, good crema and flavor but the more delicate high notes and acidity appeared to be slightly muted. Over the next couple of days the beans appeared to hold their own, but on day 3-5 they fell flat. The beans suddenly staled and lost their entire nuance, in one day they went from not to bad to compost. I also noticed that I had started with a finer than normal grind on the second sample. That is another sign of beans that are reaching the end of their prime.

Yesterday, I pulled my jumbo swollen pillow sized pound of Ambrosia from the freezer, removed the tape that had been sealing the one way valve and was greeted with a stream of cold coffee scented air as the bag degassed. This morning I opened the bag and put half of it in the LaCimbali Jr grinder. Again, the beans are starting out with little degradation. I am getting nice tiger striping and flecking in the cup. The coffee is sweet and flavorful, much like I remember the blend being when fresh from the roaster. Over the next few days I will see how the blend holds up and if it also suffers from a sudden stale and loss of flavor.

Another key note here, these were pro roasted coffees that were shipped to my home so they had 3-4 days post roast on them before I froze them and not uber fresh from the roaster beans that were promptly frozen as Ken originally did.

My experiences in freezing are pretty much as you have just described. I have frozen several espresso bound blends from CCC and Ecco Caffe over the past year. I don't think I have gone past two months of freeze time on any of the occasions. The frozen beans tend to represent an in cup character nearly identical to the fresh unfrozen counterparts, but as you, I experienced a point where they degraded quickly (or so it seemed to me). One thing I did differently though, unless I am misinterpreting your post, was that I didn't expose them to ambient air until hours later when the beans were assumed to be thawed. Also, once they were out of the freezer, they didn't go back in. My reasoning for those two actions was to minimize any potential condensation. However, it sounds like the beans in the mason jar did great without taking such an approach.

You are reading correctly. However, the sample in the jar was opened but not allowed to thaw while I retrieved a half pound for testing, the resealed and returned to the chill chest. The second sample was allowed to thaw in the jar prior to opening. The Fresco was kept in the valve bag and not opened until a day after it was retrieved from the freezer, giving it ample time to unthaw while shielded from any condensation.

The Fresco is still holding its own after the second day from the freezer. As I mentioned, these were shipped samples so when I get to day 5 in use, the beans had another 3-4 days post roast on them before freezing. So at day 5 they are effectively 8-10 days out of the roast if you do not count the 4 months they were in the deep freeze.

Well, it happened today, my last quarter pound of Ambrosia fell flat on its face. It appears that coffee that is roasted then sits for a few days prior to being frozen suffers a very quick death. For the first couple of days it held up quite well with little degradation, day three I noticed a change in the cup, day four it is compost. It still pulls a visually appealing shot but all the sweetness and acidity is gone leaving you with a very generic "coffee" flavor.

For shorter freeze periods my samples have held up quite well. I have ordered two pounds, froze one and used the other. A week later retrieve the frozen pound and it lasts just as long as the fresh pound before it. After four months in the freezer, both of my samples had a 3 day lifespan before the flavor turned from bright and fruity to wet cardboard.

cannonfodder wrote:Well, it happened today, my last quarter pound of Ambrosia fell flat on its face. It appears that coffee that is roasted then sits for a few days prior to being frozen suffers a very quick death. For the first couple of days it held up quite well with little degradation, day three I noticed a change in the cup, day four it is compost. It still pulls a visually appealing shot but all the sweetness and acidity is gone leaving you with a very generic "coffee" flavor.

For shorter freeze periods my samples have held up quite well. I have ordered two pounds, froze one and used the other. A week later retrieve the frozen pound and it lasts just as long as the fresh pound before it goes stale. After four months in the freezer, both of my samples had a 3 day lifespan before the flavor turned from bright and fruity to wet cardboard.

These are all useful observations and I thank you for posting them, Dave. Although I have a small amount of experience freezing already-degassed coffee, my experience is overwhelmingly with coffee just out of the roaster. Even with "absolutely fresh" coffee frozen just out of the cooling tray, I never freeze more in a container than I can consume in a week. On those few occasions where I have had defrosted coffee lying around longer than a week (and sometimes less than a week, depending on the coffee) I start using it exclusively in milk drinks where whatever deficiencies as may develop are hidden. I've done this with botched roasts as well, ones that aren't quite bad enough to give to a friend of mine who will drink "anything" if it is free.

My freezing results are very good, but they are done with nearly ideal conditions, e.g. very cold chest freezers, nearly airtight jars, and with coffee just out of the roaster. For those buying already roasted coffee in bulk, that has significantly degassed when they receive it, I think it may make sense to freeze what is to be frozen in small batches, maybe even as little as 125 or 150g, so that it can be used up very quickly and the next bag then opened to continue using the stash. I have some small reused salad dressing jars (straight sided, for the kind of refrigerated salad dressings you can buy at a grocery store, like the "Lighthouse" and I believe the "Marie's" brands) that hold around this small quantity, and use them often to freeze small batches.

ken

Your testing was much more exacting than mine although I tried to be as open minded as I could, no blind tasting. One major difference between Kens testing and my little "lets see what happen" is the type of coffee. While Ken used freshly roasted I used artisan roasted and shipped so my beans already had some age on them.

I would agree with you small batch freezing. In both of my sample lots the coffee held up well for the first couple of days. So if you broke the batch size down to what you consume in a two day span, chances are that you would notice very little change before you have consumed the batch.

This is to notify readers of this thread and this article, that the original study has been repeated in March 2009, extending the results in several ways:

(1) a new taster -- Jim Schulman

(2) different coffee

(3) different dosing -- 14g; rather than 18-20 g as in the original study.

(4) different grinders, using hybrid conical/planar Cimbali Max grinders

(5) longer interval of freezing -- 3 3/4 month, as well as one month

(6) including a cupping component, in addition to blind tasting of espresso shot pairs

Results were, however, essentially the same.

Here's the link:

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/...rt-two-t10301.html

I probably would not have tried freezing my coffee if not for the research you have done and shared, Ken - so thanks.

It has changed the way I buy coffee. Now, I go to my roasters/resellers and buy 5lbs at a time, rather than mail ordering in 2lb amounts. Without exception, the salesperson asks how I can drink that much coffee before it goes stale. And without exception, when I tell them that I freeze it and pull it out 1lb at a time, they make a sour face and tell me that is not recommended.

The helpful person at a shop that gets Intelligentsia coffees flown in every week assured me that Intelly does not endorse or recommend freezing their coffee. Even after explaining that I seal it, freeze it only once, and thaw it in its sealed wrapper before opening, he could not be swayed.

I think the outdated notion of keeping coffee in the freezer between uses has made the whole idea of freezing coffee a difficult one to accept.

Mark

Dogshot wrote:The helpful person at a shop that gets Intelligentsia coffees flown in every week assured me that Intelly does not endorse or recommend freezing their coffee. Even after explaining that I seal it, freeze it only once, and thaw it in its sealed wrapper before opening, he could not be swayed.

Mark

There is a lot of resistance to the idea, among those who have good, fresh, coffee to sell, and among those who think they have good coffee to sell

I'm in Vancouver right now and a couple of days ago I got into a conversation about freezing with a barista at one of the better shops here. I described the experiments we have done and he told me that they couldn't possibly be conclusive without having many more tasters and hundreds or thousands of shot pairs to compare.

I told him that I agreed with him, in that there is no way that studies such as we have done could possibly detect very small differences that might be present, that could only become apparent were one to repeat the shot pairs hundreds or even thousands of times. Of course, there are many other major variables with the whole process of making espresso; everything from those among different roast batches of coffee to the ubiquitous intershot variations that are undeniable. What we have shown, however, is that whatever deleterious effects that freezing might have on coffee, are going to become lost among the other uncontrollable variables that go into espresso shot preparation for most people in most places.

At this point, as has been pointed out by Jim Schulman in the writeup of the original article, it simply doesn't cut it for a critic of freezing to say that freezing "damages coffee" without giving some sort of proof of that statement. We have done everything that we could reasonably do to try to find differences, detrimental or otherwise, that are imparted to coffee by the freezing process when that coffee is then used to make espresso (or the same coffee is cupped, as in the 2nd study). We have not found any evidence of damage, and in fact we have found considerable evidence that freezing, done properly, preserves and extends the shelf life of fresh coffee. Numerous people whom I personally respect have used freezing to extend shelf life, and have written about their positive experiences on this and other threads on this website. I have not read a single convincing post about a negative experience with freezing done properly, by anyone who clearly gave freezing an honest try (short posts without details obviously excluded).

To those who see flaws in the methodology we have used in these studies, I would encourage them to perform another reasonable, blind tasting study, to answer the same questions we have attempted to answer. We would all be interested to read about another blinded experiment testing the impact of freezing, especially if it reached a different conclusion. No one has a monopoly on "truth," certainly not us. However, simply repeating the same old biases (against freezing) with no proof whatsoever, does not reflect well on the ability of those making such statements to think for themselves or to absorb new information as the "science" of coffee "advances" over time.

ken