The design of the E61 group earns its reputation as the heart of an espresso machine that is forgiving of minor errors in barista technique. This guides considers the latest rotary pump-equipped E61 model from Quick Mill, the Vetrano, named after a gentleman from Milan who worked for Faema for forty years and now restores original Faeme E61 one and two group espresso machines simply for the pleasure.

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Dan,

I read the article last evening. Excellent review (as usual). I really like your conclusion. I'm sure that I'm speaking for many when I state my appreciation for the work you put into these buyer's guides. The purchase of my Vetrano was based heavily on your Andreja review. Thanks.

Matthew Brinski

Carefully researched and well crafted review of an excellent HX machine. Nice job, Dan!

Dan, an excellent review, as always. This is the machine I kept looking at before the S1 stole my eye. With Eric's latest probe it makes the choice tougher.

Cheers

Ian

Great article Dan. One of the reasons I purchased a Vetrano was your well written evaluation of it. In fact, I purchased the first one you evaluated and here it is-



I did not find the first edition machine objectionable and it was a snap to plumb in the line and get it up and running. I may connect the drain some time, but I am in no hurry as this earlier model sounds like a real pain to connect the drain hose to.

as for the probe and thermal readout...well I will be exploring this further.

Thanks again,

Rich

Dan,
Great review, thanks for your attention to detail. I am planning on purchasing a Vetrano. QuickMill offers a PID kit for approximately $250. An extra $250 plus installation costs is a substantial amount of extra money. Do you feel it is worth it? I have read the articles: No More Guesswork! Naked Truth of E61 Temperature Revealed, and How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs. Does a PID kit perform the same function as the thermocouple thermometer probe that is inserted in the E-61 group?

mgalli wrote:Dan,
Great review, thanks for your attention to detail. I am planning on purchasing a Vetrano. QuickMill offers a PID kit for approximately $250. An extra $250 plus installation costs is a substantial amount of extra money. Do you feel it is worth it? I have read the articles: No More Guesswork! Naked Truth of E61 Temperature Revealed, and How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs. Does a PID kit perform the same function as the thermocouple thermometer probe that is inserted in the E-61 group?

Matthew-

I wonder if you are confusing the PID kit offered for the Quick Mill Alexia (link)? There may be folks out there that are offering to PID the Quick Mill Vetrano, I am uncertain.

If you PID a HX machine, you are replacing the pressurestat for the boiler with a PID and thermocouple, and regulate the temperature of the boiler rather than the pressure of the boiler.

See, PID on a HX...this is my thinking, is it flawed? and Temperature Stability . . . . from a Heat Exchanger (and others I am forgetting) for related discussion of PID and HX.

To answer your last question, no, it is not really a direct replacement for Eric's E61 group thermocouple adapter.

mgalli wrote:QuickMill offers a PID kit for approximately $250... Do you feel it is worth it? Does a PID kit perform the same function as the thermocouple thermometer probe that is inserted in the E-61 group?

Sorry, I haven't tried a PID on the Vetrano.

As Jeff noted, Ken Fox and Ian Eales (cafeIKE) have PID'd their HX espresso machines with good results. It would be difficult to find two machines more different than theirs (La Cimbali DT1, Vibiemme Domobar Super), but both reported it was necessary to lower the boiler pressure considerably, which makes for less impressive steaming. On the other hand, you can quickly change the boiler pressure via a second PID set point, if you're only an occasional cappuccino / latte drink.

The Vibiemme Domobar Super is similar to the Vetrano, but different enough that I'm not confident that Ian's results would be directly applicable to it. For example, the Vibiemme has a thermosyphon flow restrictor, the Vetrano does not. While I haven't had the heat exchangers and HX injectors out side-by-side for comparison, their operation is different enough that I suspect they're also different. Using a PID to regulate to "normal" boiler pressure (1.0 to 1.2 bar) seems pointless to me because you'll still have to vary the flush; eliminating the need to vary the flush amount was the major benefit of the Fox/Eales PID conversions.

Is it worth PID'ing an HX espresso machine? Obviously some feel it's a great idea. I've had no interest in taking on the cost or trouble, simply because I find brew temperature management very low on the difficulty scale. Learning to diagnose taste flaws, for example, is much more challenging. For those who want lots of feedback, Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter reduces it to pure mechanics (i.e., you flush until the reading says your brew temperature + some delta, wait 10 seconds, pull... works every time for a decent range of brew temperatures). It does however take a few extra seconds and more water than a low boiler pressure PID solution.

Jeff and Dan thanks for the responses. I went back and looked up the information for the PID and it was indeed for the Alexia, not the Vetrano. I did not understand how a PID worked, but now I have a better understanding. I will not be pursuing a PID for the Vetrano. Thanks again for the information.

HB wrote:the Vibiemme has a thermosyphon flow restrictor, the Vetrano does not.

over the past few weeks, i have learned the vetrano a bit more.

to me it acts alot like the pulser did before i put in that thermosyphon restrictor.

its great but its still a heat management of keeping the brew temps cool in the brewing range. if there was a restrictor in there i think it would work very well and increase the time you are in the brew temp range you want to be in. the pulser with restrictor will stay very stable.

currently on the vetrano, i can flush the water temp to 200° then dose and tamp. 25 seconds later its boiling again, and needs a quick flush (pstat 1-1.3 bar). if i go way below what i want. it will rebound up to about the right temp. but i have to trust it and not flush, not even to see if its boiling again.

it seems on the vetrano without the restrictor "flush and wait" is best. i tend to prefer a "flush and go" technique. i have been tryin to get both techniques wired on the vetrano. a fun process but it seems like this machine prefers "flush and wait". i wonder if a restrictor will help? can it ruin a machine to mess around with its thermosyphon?

thanks for the time.

jon