Yet another topic for Pressurized portafilter - Page 2

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drgary
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#11: Post by drgary »

Read some of the coffee reviews in the coffees forum. Read the reviews in the Favorite Espresso Blends 2014 and Favorite Espresso Blends 2012 threads. Espresso can taste sweet and delightful, not bitter or harsh. With your equipment it is very hard to get there. Try some of the other brew methods I mentioned and change the temperature by 1 degree C increments until you hit the sweet and mellow spot for that coffee. The coffee also needs to be properly roasted, which can be hard to do. And, it needs to be fresh and fresh ground.
Gary
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What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

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#12: Post by drgary »

Yaser, the answer above was too quick. I was getting ready to go to sleep. But I realize you may be facing quite a challenge and would like to help you achieve delicious espresso in Tehran. Here are some first thoughts:

Please post a photo of the beans you have roasted. Tell us anything you can find out about them. This might include their place of origin, when they were harvested, whether the beans were dried inside the coffee cherry on a patio or if they were processed another way. I realize you may not know all of this.

Please describe your roasting process in as much detail as possible.

Show us your grinder.

Tell us about the best coffee you ever had. And, have you found the best cafe in Tehran? How is their coffee prepared? How does it taste? Do any of them make espresso that tastes good to you?

Are professionally roasted coffees available to you from other countries? If so where? Having a fine professional roast to try may speed the learning process.

I have asked these questions because I believe the first step may be to teach you to brew coffee that tastes good, not bitter, not sour, with pleasant flavors and no need to add sugar or milk.

Choose a simple brewing method. What methods are available to you besides espresso? Examples are immersion brewing like a French press or AeroPress, filter brewing like Chemex or Melitta, moka pot, and so on. We can stay with one brewing method, suggest how to find the right dose and grind and temperature and brew time. You would train yourself to taste what is possible in that coffee. You would need a gram scale and a food thermometer and a brewer and would time the brewing.

Espresso would come later but would need to be preceded by how good coffee can taste when it is simply brewed. Moving to espresso at that point would be easier.

Does this seem like a good way to start?
Gary
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What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

yrashidi (original poster)
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#13: Post by yrashidi (original poster) »

Hi and thanks for your time.

Yes, There are also good cafes and we are trying one of the best tonight. Will describe the taste here.

I know nothing more than Ethiopia from the origin of the beans. Nor anything about the way they are processed. I'll also ask the armenian coffee provider(who roasts the beans himself freshly) about the method/time of the roast. I'm already out of espresso beans and will buy some tonight and will post photos of that too. As far as I can tell, apart from on-the-shelf illy/starbucks/lavazza/etc. beans available which are very old in their roast-hence useless- the other option I have is the armenian man(named george coffee) who atleast roasts fresh. I'll post more when more info is available.

I like the aroma and also taste of drip coffee with Krups Xp2240. I use size 4 paper filter and I grind myself. I noticed when I grind finer, the taste gets better for me. I use very little-close to none- milk and no sugar. Based on the origin of the beans(colombia & Ethiopia I used so far) the taste is different but both can be perfected with good grind setting.

You may laugh at me, saying grind setting(rightfully) because my grinder is this:





I bought it from Istanbul. by turning the screw on the bottom, it is possible to make the grind finer/coarser. It's not easy to see the blades, but by tightening the screw to max(for finest) you have to use a lot of power to grind.

FYI, I don't like Turkish coffee at all ! whatever process used(armenians use a different method), there's simply too much dreg in it for me. I like drip/espresso more where water washes solubles of coffee and there's no dreg.

Other bew methods: I also can buy a french press or moka pot, but haven't tried their coffee yet. My friends who have moka pot say it's like hell to get a good shot out of it and if you do, it's by chance and un-repeatable.

I also one time tried cold brewing at home, and the taste wasn't to my liking, even though as they claimed, some other aromas could be found in it(which is neglected if you brew otherwise). but being cold, wasn't for me. I like a hot/dark/syrupy beverage. Even for Drip coffee I use very fine grind and the taste is good, of course it takes a while for the water to pass through the coffee though with finer grinds.

PS. Recently I found there's a group named IBG(Iran barista guild) which some of the baristas there are competing in world series or something, so I'll ask them for help too. There are good espresso machines(like Bezzera/cimbali/etc.) but none of them is for home use. They are all very big, always with more than one group, industrial and expensive.

I also looked up and watched several videos about lever machines, it IS tempting. although it seems to even make the problem more complicated, like now even the force you use to extract the shot becomes a variable. But anyhow I liked the concept and look of the machines. I'm not sure if there's even one lever machine in Iran(maybe some1 somewhere but scattered and hard to find). If it comes to that point I have friends to buy it abroad and send as gift for me.

Thank you again, this means alot to me. :idea:

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#14: Post by drgary »

Yaser, that kind of grinder can be very good. If you want to see if there is bitterness from the grind you could try and shake the ground coffee on a fine mesh screen or sifter and get rid of any dust (we call that dust "fines"). Then see what it takes like. Could you send pictures of your Ethiopian and Colombian roasted beans? That will give a little more information about how they are roasted.

Here are links about how to make coffee with a moka pot. This method is very dependable, and the coffee is syrupy and delicious. The grind is coarser than what you probably use. Your friends will appreciate learning how to do this.

James Hoffman Instructions on Moka Pot Brewing

The secrets of the moka pot - How to video

I like the idea of contacting baristas who are participating in a world championship. They should have lots of information for you. I find a lever machine easier, not harder. But in any case, there are many reviews about espresso machines here, some are levers, some have pumps. Researching those is a starting point for having someone buy one for you perhaps in Italy.

It would be great if you could get a simple drip maker or AeroPress and pour coffee through that at controlled temperature. To control the temperature you would need a food thermometer. Darker roasts take lower temperature. Coffee is never made well with boiling water. That extracts bitterness. When you show a photo of the beans that will tell me more what to recommend for starting temperature. What drip makers are available to you? Can you get an AeroPress? It does not make espresso but it does make delicious, filtered coffee that is temperature controlled.
Gary
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What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

yrashidi (original poster)
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#15: Post by yrashidi (original poster) »

Hi

Thanks gary :idea: very much appreciated.



The first is the beans(Ethiopian). My wife bought them so I know no more about the roast yet.

The second and third is the espresso I extracted from same bean. The machine is a lil unbalanced so two demitasse are not equal :oops: I always give the less one to the wife :)

The taste is ashy, bitter and non-acceptable.

Machine: Krups XP2240 - and I have depressurized the PF. A plastic with little hole in it was removed from the PF. Extraction time=20s.

FYI, I tried a cafe and their espresso was underextract, sour, pale crema. I'll try to get someplace better next time.

Any hint/advice/etc. is appreciated.

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#16: Post by drgary »

I don't think you will have much success with that Krups machine because temperature will be hard to control.
yrashidi wrote:The machine is a lil unbalanced so two demitasse are not equal :oops: I always give the less one to the wife :)

The taste is ashy, bitter and non-acceptable.
This is to save her from the suffering of drinking more, right?

For learning espresso I suggest smaller steps first. Start with good coffee. Then learn how it should taste. Meanwhile sell or return the Krups machine and plan to get something better.

The coffee in your photo might be good because it doesn't look very dark and shiny, which can indicate a very dark roast or staleness. So, you should be able to taste the flavors in the bean. How does it smell before you brew it? Does it smell good? Does it smell stale or ashy? What does it taste like if you chew a bean? Also, how does it taste if you grind it coarse, pour it into a bowl, add water at 93C and let it steep for a four minutes? If you don't have a food thermometer, bring the water to a boil, then let it cool for about 90 seconds before pouring it into the coffee grounds. Dip a spoon under the crust on top to see how it tastes. If it tastes good then you know you have good coffee.

Here is the more formal instruction from the website of Jim Schulman and Bob Yellin, two coffee experts. Jim writes as another_jim on Home-Barista. It is about formal coffee tasting or "cupping." Skip the formal steps for now but get the sense about how to taste the coffee using the simplest brewing method. The method is similar to what I just wrote here. Anything on that website will give you good information.

http://coffeecuppers.com/Formal-Home-Cupping.htm

It's important to know when the coffee was roasted. It should taste at its best between maybe 5 and 10 days after roasting. So, see if you can find out the roast date. If it is old coffee that has been sitting on a shelf for a month there will be no way to make it taste good.

I would first start with trying to brew the coffee and discover the right temperature for it. If the coffee is fresh and has rested enough that it also tastes good, seal it air tight and put it in a freezer. Then the coffee will be good as you try and work with it. It is hard to tell from a photo, but maybe start with brewing a small amount at 92C and try it in two degree increments. The next would be 94C. Find its best temperature if you can.

What simple brewing method do you want to try? The Krups machine may be hard to control for temperature, although it may be okay. But to train your tasting ability I suggest something like pourover with filters into a carafe. French press may be good too since it will press the grit to the bottom. You will need a food thermometer. Your grinder should be okay for this.
Gary
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What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

yrashidi (original poster)
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#17: Post by yrashidi (original poster) »

Hi

and Thanks again. Yes, I got annoyed of the machine once I realized about pressurized PF and false 15bar advertising(which got me to buy it in the first place!).

These are the thermometers used for general purpose/food available here:




they are mostly from Taiwan. +/- 1 degree claimed precision(which I doubt) but I believe these will be OK for my use?

I already posted the Krups for sale in a website. I'll get rid of it, even tough the Drip coffee was something I could use, but that could be closely done via a hand-made controlled temp drip or even french press right? the result is really close with French press and Drip imo(and i might be wrong!). So for starters I could experiment with hand-made drip or a french press and afterwards with a moka pot which are available too.

There's a cafeex expo in 2 months in Tehran which I'll attend and I'm going to visit France/Italia around march so I plan to expand my knowledge until then and if possible get my espresso machine there :roll:

Thanks for useful links gary. Very helpful and interesting stuff. My wife was blown :shock: when saw people monitoring a moka pot with 4 thermometers at the same time and drawing charts over it, etc.. :P


--------------------
abt Ethiopian coffee beans: Yes, they are very good, specially if I use them in drip. I like dark coffee, so I grind finer than usual drip and the result is more tasty to me specially in the mornings. The ground coffee smells very nice even several meters people notice it. during drip brewing time the smell is good too. I asked our roaster and he says he only roasts so much so that it will take max 1 week to sell, which is fine.

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#18: Post by drgary »

Yaser,

Both of those thermometers look good. I use one similar to the one in your top photo. Many things are now made in Taiwan and China and often high quality. When you get a thermometer test it in boiling water to see if the temperature is accurate. If it is not you can see how far it is off.

Moka pot does not need any thermometer.

Doing drip or French press by hand with a thermometer will give more temperature control than with the Krups. There are also brewing machines that let you control temperature exactly and steep time also, for instance the Technivorm or the Bonavita Brewer (with a new one coming soon).

If you like darker coffee try brewing it as cool as 80C and experiment with increasing temperatures to find its sweet spot.

When you go to France or Italy, you should have amazing choices in espresso machines. Consider at least one hand lever, like a vintage La Pavoni or Arrarex Caravel or Arrarex VAM.
Gary
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yrashidi (original poster)
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#19: Post by yrashidi (original poster) »

Hi

I bought a scale and thermometer. Thermometer shows boiling temp of water 96.6. which for the height of where I am(about 1750m above sea levels) should be around 98.1. so I guess all measurements would be off by 1.5 degree. No biggie.

For now I will use the Krups but only the drip funnel + Carafe + Paper filter part. I won't use the Machine to boil the water but I will boil and add it myself. lemme play with settings(grind, temp, steep time) for a while. Our roaster suggests a less roasted coffee(same beans) for drip. I may try them too, although now I'm using espresso roasted beans for drip and I like it alot.

The main problems is the grinder. The result is good but it's hard to keep track of settings :lol: you have to just remember the last settings as there's no degree, nothing. just a screw and the results are hardly repeatable with this hand grinder...but I'll manage. Once I'm happy with something I won't change it, or I'll figure out a way to make that grind repeatable.

I watched some videos of levers and I think I may like them alot. I'm a fan of vintage stuff and DIY, rip apart a machine and clean/maintain it, etc. Also the result looks fantastic and I must say they cost a lot more than I thought for a manual machine. It's a boiler, cylinder, mechanical pump action. What's with the >1000 euros models? :shock:

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#20: Post by drgary »

yrashidi wrote:I watched some videos of levers and I think I may like them alot. I'm a fan of vintage stuff and DIY, rip apart a machine and clean/maintain it, etc. Also the result looks fantastic and I must say they cost a lot more than I thought for a manual machine. It's a boiler, cylinder, mechanical pump action. What's with the >1000 euros models? :shock:
People can charge as much as they want! :lol: If you are going to Italy you may be able to find a vintage lever for much less.

And I agree with you saying if you find a setting you like keep that variable the same. Trying different coffees at different roast levels will show you how very different they can taste.
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!