Charlene wrote:I'm not having any extraction issues. I tamp with 60 pounds because Nate Bakke advises it.

Do you mean Kent Bakke?

Charlene wrote:I'm not having any extraction issues. I tamp with 60 pounds because Nate Bakke advises it.

Though as I recall she uses a Pug Press so she just has to tell it 60 pounds. For most of the rest of us, 60 pounds is enough to start hurting. I likely tamp at 5 pounds or less and I have no problems since I got a decent grinder and use WDT. I use my fingers on the rim of the tamper to make sure it's level with the top of the basket and once I've accomplished that, I consider it tamped. Is 60 pounds better? No clue, but I'm not going down that path unless I get something to tamp for me. When I started I tamped to whatever the Espro tamper was set at, 30lbs in theory, but I pull way better espresso with the new grinder and a very light tamp.

Ira

Charlene wrote:Without watching you do all this, one can only speculate that using a spoon may have had a compression effect beyond what a 25 pound tamper produces. Just speculating...

Do a prescribed WDT with just a needle and tamp the crap out of the grinds and see what kind of a flow rate you get.

I am thinking you may have been under-tamping. As respected teacher and recognized godfather of espresso in the USA, Kent Bakke of La Marzocco USA advises... tamp at a min of 40 pounds up to 60 pounds. I have citation for this and not meaning to start anything as this road has been traveled before. I always tamp with 60 pounds of pressure.

Thank you. I will probably stick to a tamping force of 30 pounds, but I think you are exactly right about the spoon being the problem. When I perform WDT with only a .025" diameter needle, the extraction is very uniform, and the time comes back down to normal.

Rocky

SJM wrote:Do you mean Kent Bakke?

Yes... I meant Kent Bakke. I keep calling him Nate for some reason.

Right. I set my electric tamper to do 60 pounds and it does a 60 pound double tap.

I don't advise anyone to use 60 pounds if they are not using a tamping machine of some sorts that takes the risk of personal injury off the table. Use 30 pounds or whatever feels right and gets good results for what each person personally prepares for tamping.

Ask Kent Bakke why he advises high tamping pressure. I think I know why but it would be interesting to hear his 'more is better' explanation.

ira wrote:Though as I recall she uses a Pug Press so she just has to tell it 60 pounds. For most of the rest of us, 60 pounds is enough to start hurting. I likely tamp at 5 pounds or less and I have no problems since I got a decent grinder and use WDT. I use my fingers on the rim of the tamper to make sure it's level with the top of the basket and once I've accomplished that, I consider it tamped. Is 60 pounds better? No clue, but I'm not going down that path unless I get something to tamp for me. When I started I tamped to whatever the Espro tamper was set at, 30lbs in theory, but I pull way better espresso with the new grinder and a very light tamp.

Ira

Cool...

I am using a very thin and strong needle for WDT, as you are using.

Before I got a funnel for the portafilter I had to be very careful not to spill grinds while doing WDT thus, I had to ...slowly... drag the needle though the grinds. By doing that, I could feel voids and compressed areas. I worked the needle to eliminate all that until I could confirm, by feel, that I had uniform resistance against the needle.

The results were quite good.

With the funnel, I WDT with abandon as fast and furious as I want and it's over much more quickly and the results are quite good.

RockyIII wrote:Thank you. I will probably stick to a tamping force of 30 pounds, but I think you are exactly right about the spoon being the problem. When I perform WDT with only a .025" diameter needle, the extraction is very uniform, and the time comes back down to normal.

Rocky

OT

RockyIII wrote:Thank you. I will probably stick to a tamping force of 30 pounds, but I think you are exactly right about the spoon being the problem. When I perform WDT with only a .025" diameter needle, the extraction is very uniform, and the time comes back down to normal.

Rocky

Very interesting. Reminds me of reading some of the threads on the LWW Blind Tumbler (shaker type of WDT tool). Some shaking angles resulted in worse pours.

There is a devout following for WDT on this forum. I wonder if some users do more harm than good to their pulls?

I grind finer and tamp less, maybe 10-15# because I advise it, lmao.

Godfather of espresso in the US?!? Guess anybody can believe what they choose to believe. I've been involved in espresso (home and commercially) for some time and never heard that name. Then again I'm not a fan of LaMarzocco either. If 60# works for him so be it. Like many on coffee forums I've tried all sorts of patterns over the years regarding grind fineness, distribution methods, dosing changes, tamping more/less. I seriously doubt anything positive/better can be achieved when going over 25-30# on tamping. Once the puck is compressed where else can that excess pressure be distributed? Other than to your bone structure that is for those that tamp manually.

Charlene wrote:I'm not having any extraction issues. I tamp with 60 pounds because Nate Bakke advises it.

Hi Charlene,

Do you know what the reasoning is behind this? Nearly double the common thought of 30-35#. Perhaps just to guarantee complete compression. I'm not sure how hard I tamp pounds wise, I just tamp until the coffee doesn't compress anymore. I suppose any harder wouldn't hurt anything, until it gets to the point where the grounds are being crushed, not sure how hard you'd have to tamp to cause that to happen.