WDT changes extraction time drastically - Page 2

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AssafL
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#11: Post by AssafL »

When you look at a naked portafilter is the pull homogenic at the bottom (appears at all basket holes nearly simultaneously)or does it always start at one side?
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

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AssafL
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#12: Post by AssafL »

RapidCoffee wrote:Yes, this is the likely explanation. Better puck prep helps eliminate channeling. If your non-WDT pucks are channeling, that could easily account for double the flow rate.

But there could be other reasons, including simple measurement error. So I hope you tried this little experiment more than once, making sure that the paired pucks were prepped consistently.
Doesn't have to be "channeling" (channeling meaning a breakup of the puck or fissures in the puck). Can easily be a non homogenous puck causing flow through one side of the puck. One can compensate for this by updosing so that the part of the puck that extracts is larger. Wasteful though.

Real channeling will have randomness about it. RockyIII seems to be doing everything right - so his shots are consistent.

We often ignore normalization when we buy a grinder - but it is at least 50% of the duty of a grinder - get it wrong and either be forced to WDT (all LWW grinders) or live with massive updosing.

BTW - boulders do the same. Look at Socratics comparison of the EG1 and Monolith. One doesn't need a PHD to see the writing on the wall...
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RockyIII (original poster)
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#13: Post by RockyIII (original poster) »

I appreciate the ideas and suggestions. Using WDT, I've coarsened the grind slightly, bringing the extraction time down to about 30 seconds, and the flow coming from the bottomless portafilter looks very even.

I'm resigned to using WDT for every shot, at least for now. After several more pounds of beans run through the burrs, I will reassess. I thought going back to a hopper grinder rather than single dosing would simplify things, but so far that is not proving to be true.

Rocky

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RapidCoffee
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#14: Post by RapidCoffee »

RockyIII wrote:... I ground into a small cup, performed vigorous WDT with a small spoon and then a toothpick, and then dumped the grounds into the portafilter basket, distributed, and tamped.
Suggestion: get a basket collar (or make one from a cut-down yogurt cup), and use a wooden-handled dissecting needle to stir the grounds in the basket. I would feel "resigned" to use your method too! But WDT actually adds only a few seconds to your workflow.
John

RockyIII (original poster)
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#15: Post by RockyIII (original poster) replying to RapidCoffee »

Thanks. I use an OE dosing cylinder on the portafilter. Is the needle sharp? Doesn't it scratch the portafilter? I've always used a toothpick for WDT, but I have ordered a small Rattleware flat bottom whisk to try.

Rocky

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RapidCoffee
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#16: Post by RapidCoffee »

RockyIII wrote:Thanks. I use an OE dosing cylinder on the portafilter. Is the needle sharp? Doesn't it scratch the portafilter? I've always used a toothpick for WDT, but I have ordered a small Rattleware flat bottom whisk to try.
I have used a dissecting needle for over a decade, and never scratched a basket.

People go to amazing lengths to avoid dissecting needles: toothpicks, chopsticks, whisks, as well as some really weird do-it-yourself gizmos. I have never understood why. Dissecting needles are inexpensive, ergonomically correct, and IMHO the right tool for the job.
John

Shuka
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#17: Post by Shuka »

Here's a sewing needle I use soldered into a brass/copper handle I made for WDT. Another chance for bling is always justified in espresso-land, it seems!
Cheers,
Shuka
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Charlene
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#18: Post by Charlene »

RockyIII wrote:
Just for grins, I ground into a small cup, performed vigorous WDT with a small spoon and then a toothpick, and then dumped the grounds into the portafilter basket, distributed, and tamped.
Without watching you do all this, one can only speculate that using a spoon may have had a compression effect beyond what a 25 pound tamper produces. Just speculating...

Do a prescribed WDT with just a needle and tamp the crap out of the grinds and see what kind of a flow rate you get.

I am thinking you may have been under-tamping. As respected teacher and recognized godfather of espresso in the USA, Kent Bakke of La Marzocco USA advises... tamp at a min of 40 pounds up to 60 pounds. I have citation for this and not meaning to start anything as this road has been traveled before. I always tamp with 60 pounds of pressure.

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AssafL
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#19: Post by AssafL replying to Charlene »

Cherlene - assuming your grinder is well aligned (parallel burrs) - you may want to try grinding a wee notch finer and tamping a wee bit less :)

The trifecta is puck prep, tamping pressure & pre-infusion. For puck validate your grind is homogenous and distributed perfectly. Tamp reasonably - proper tamper size is key. Preinfuse reasonably or use a spring lever (which pre-infuses rather reasonably whether you want to or not).

Possibly the key here to ensure that puck density is 100% uniform. Also no stratification of grinds albeit Socratic have shown that perfectly layered horizontal stratification is okay - not so vertical!

The only reason I ever found to tamp hard - was bad grinding. If the burrs lack parallelism, tamping hard and eschewing pre-infusion can sometimes help lock a puck down and eke out a "pour". Opting for low EBF in this case will help make it sweeter since most solubles will not be extracted anyway.

Great coffee it probably won't be: technique can compensate for much in espresso - with the sole exception of grinding.
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

Charlene
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#20: Post by Charlene replying to AssafL »

I'm not having any extraction issues. I tamp with 60 pounds because Nate Bakke advises it.