Beezer wrote:I don't understand why Vibiemme puts these rails under the drip tray in the first place. In Quickmill machines, there is no railing under the drip tray, just smooth metal that the tray sits on. Thus, there's no place to collect excess water that might lead to rust.

I had assumed that the lip in front is to stiffen the chassis in that plane. But if you look at the images of the machine I originally posted in this thread, VBM uses a captured nut/threaded insert for the front legs. These protrude into the area where the drip tray goes.

Whale wrote:Because they are buiding what we are willing to pay for. If they would make an espresso machine that would be fool proof to corrosion, wear and the idiots (read me) that might use it in so many unforseen ways, most of us would not buy it because it would cost too much.

There are various level of quality that we can choose from and pay for. We all make that choice when we buy the machine or any product.

Just expressing a manufacturers point of view.

This is the statement that I have a problem with and others appear to have a problem also.

For the price this particular machine sells for it is reasonable to assume that this machine would hold up better than it has, and with this much corrosion in this period of time there is a design flaw.

It appears that you are roughly saying " you get what you pay for " and if you wanted a better machine "you should be willing to pay for it".

The original poster is stating that "for the price level he paid, this particular problem should not exist" and there is a design flaw. I think a good many of the posters here will agree with him, I know I do.

Whale wrote:In my original post on this thread, it is pretty much where I was going. Yes, and I have tried to clarify my thought in subsequent post. You may disagree and I respect your opinion and Jon's and Randy's, and everybody else's. [and earlier you wrote] "... you get what you pay for... and if you wanted a better machine you should be willing to pay for it.

Consumer law often either states or implies that there is an assumed usability for a product and that the consumer should be able to expect a reasonable term of use for said product (I was an art major, so don't quote me.. ). This usability term may or may not exceed the manufacturer's warranty. But the fact that you brought up the "get what you pay for" argument in this instance makes you sound defensive on the part of the manufacturer when weighed against the specific issue of this thread. You could just as easily have said, "Caveat emptor" and it would have been perceived in about the same way by the reader of your post- ie. that it was the purchaser's fault for not inspecting hidden areas before purchasing for the potential for rust to form.

I say that the design and placement of those brackets was idiotic. The solution could have been as easy as turning the brackets around in the other direction so that the underside would have been accessible, not only for powder coating but also to allow the consumer access to their underside for the purpose of running a towel under them to dry the area. Total cost increase would be the slightly additional amount of powder coating which should have been applied in the first place.

dsc wrote:but it makes you wonder why is a 3500$ machine made like crap? Can't they do a decent job and protect the steel properly, especially if they know that it might rust after a while or that it's going to be covered with water/in a moist environment?

Like a metal screw that holds the Elektra A1/T3 drip tray with a metal leg into the frame right beside it....
Electronics under a metal plate with a screw in the middle of the protection plate instead of at an edge (sure it's normally protected by the drip tray) but I got water on it once by accident...
Etc.

Nothing is prefect and manufacturing has trade-offs. Letting the manufacturer know the issue and having them fix it is always a plus. A lot of these machines see small refinements year after year, but still have odd or weird issues that make them quirky/charming in the eyes of the beholder.

Mark

Are there even odds that a designer sitting at a CAD workstation found out that they needed a few mm more clearance and found the best work around for that problem. With out several years of design experience in that cycle it would be a obvious way to solve the problem with the least manufacturing cost.

That it caused unrelated problems after the fact has been stated. If you had skilled and well paid designers that had done these drawings and machines for years this would not be seen.

Just because you can drive a CAD program around does not mean you should be in production. I guess this is where the old mentor/apprentice model outshines the modern book learning.

Then this is a book learning site teaching Espresso which should be handed down by hand as well. Oh well.

-Cecil

Hi HB community,

Before interjecting a few comments here, I do first apologize for not responding sooner. Unfortunately, our business has grown, even in this economy, to levels I have never imagined. Hence, my delayed response to the situation.

Second, Randy did email me his problem, and I do owe him an apology for not personally replying with swifter responses. As already mentioned to Randy, I believe we sold over 400 of these black Vibiemme machines since early 2006. I am offering this number so everyone keeps the occurrence percentage in perspective when mentioning design flaws, etc.

Occurrences to Date Feb 27, 2009
To date, I believe only 3 customers including Randy have had this issue with their black Vibiemme machines. I leave it up to each individual personally to assess whether this is a design flaw or not. Please also note that I use a black Vibiemme (original style without lip) for espresso catering (heavy use) and I have not experienced this problem, and thus I was mesmerized by this previously unknown occurrence of rusting.

So far, none of the stainless steel versions have been reported (unless I made an error in the above three).

Design Flaw
I would question a design flaw not at 100% occurrence, but as little as 10-20% occurrence of the total population of machines at hand (for those who mentioned airplane safety, I agree that even a 0.0001% occurrence is too much).

At 1st-line, we try to select machines and lines of machines that have less than a 3% defect rate in the first year of ownership - this is actually a very good threshold, believe it or not. This is one of many reasons/parameters why certain models are carried on our web site, and other makes and models are not. This is also why sometimes machines come off our web site.

For example, we dropped the Isomac Relax several years ago because there was a 20% defect rate in this machine alone. We almost dropped the whole line of Isomacs, but we did not, because with their improvements they made with our advice, their machines now enjoy a less than 1% defect rate in the first year of ownership.

In my opinion, I would not 'yet' consider the aforementioned problem a design flaw on Vibiemme - although potentially, it could be one, AND the design can always be improved as just with any product. Even the Rancilio Silvia had cases of rust on the black frame. The lip on the newer Vibiemme machines probably has improved these results as feedback from customers a few years ago persuaded Vibiemme to incorporate this design improvement.

Since Randy's problem was never reported before (that I could find and please keep in mind Vibiemme home units were sold as far back as 1985 in the USA), I do not think they see/saw this rare occurrence coming.

How about the stainless steel model?
I noted above that there have not been any reports on the stainless steel model. I state this because the actual welds that hold these bars in place could rust as any weld on any machine can rust. You will see a secondary response on this thread shortly about stainless rusting on the welds - competitive model to Vibiemme that someone suggested.

Drip tray area must be kept dry
We actually have a Vibiemme Junior that has been running in our showroom for the last three months - heavy use by my staff for their own use and customer demonstrations/training. I just inspected it this morning, and the area under the drip tray is VERY dry and no visible rust. At this point, it is important to keep this area dry.

For those who feel nervous about the situation or do get a lot of water under the drip tray, the course of action taken by Randy (for which I commend him for) can be followed, or the application of a clear sealant around the perimeter of the entirety of both brackets would probably be a good choice (stainless steel and black models). This is not a permanent fix, but a maintenance issue just like caulking windows and applying sealant around tubs and sinks.

Conclusion
Even though the occurrence of this situation is less than 1%, 1st-line will still be sharing this area of concern with Vibiemme as an area of improvement. Even in its current state, when one views all the quality components used inside a Vibiemme Super when compared to competing models, it does offer good bang for the buck.

goldsholl wrote:im looking for a new machine and i think the Alex is the choice.. i have a 30 year old cimbali jr that doesn't have a speck of rust anywhere.. i was told by Chris that the VBM has a thinner gauge metal than the Izzo.

I would agree with Chris at Chris Coffee that the Vibiemme does have a thinner gauge of stainless, but he failed to tell you why. The Alex has a gaping wide gap on the bottom that a slightly thinner metal frame would not be strong enough to support the machine. So, instead of spreading the frame's stainless evenly, Izzo decided to remove some metal from one place and add to another. I am not sure if the thinner gauge has a direct proportional relationship to rusting as does the iron content, when applicable, in the stainless.

Let me add some fair balance here on the Alex as I do offer positives and negatives when I speak to people over the phone:

Picture 1 and 2 (both corners) - Why is the inside of the drip tray from an Alex machine rusting after only using water with the machine for 3 days - again water only. The reason is the weld. For those people who believe there is a design flaw for Vibiemme because water gets under the drip tray, then there should be more outrage for a design flaw where water is 'IN' the drip tray.



Picture 3 - The Alex is a good line of machines, but I question why do they use the same exact wiring that was used in the Isomacs when Chris carried them in the early 2000s, but was changed by Chris in Quickmill as a selling point over Isomacs when he introduced his upgraded Quickmill line to destroy Isomac in the USA:


This is not to bash Chris, his organization, nor his products as I know Chris for the last 7-8 years and have lots of respect for him. My point is that manufacturers or their suppliers will try to cut corners to make money (and even us dealers/importers will not know about it), and there are and will always be trade-offs to build a quality product at a competitive price.

At the end of the day, there are a lot of quality machines and non-quality machines in the marketplace. None of them will be perfect, and the one that best fits a specific individual's needs the closest (with relation to stock on hand, shipping speed, vendor selection, budget, service, physical size, performance and capacity, reliability, color, etc in no particular order) should be chosen. The worst machine to select is one on a plain online blanket recommendation or just because it is on sale or offered for a discount.

I would like to make something clear here I have no idea who "goldsholl" is but I NEVER told him or ANYONE for that matter that Vibiemme has thinner gauge metal that Izzo! The only time I ever refer to thickness of gauge is when comparing the Quick Mill Anita to the Andreja Premium. The reason is simple you can't make nice smooth curves with thick gauge stainless. I don't sell equipment by knocking my competition. Jim you know me well enough by now to know that is not my style. People should be more careful what they post in a forum.