As you can see the frame is now a single skin of steel with the double skin stopping at the fold, you can also see on the side pic where frame has been strengthened

Gorv wrote:As you can see the frame is now a single skin of steel with the double skin stopping at the fold, you can also see on the side pic where frame has been strengthened

The strength of the framework is not in question here. Note your image:

The blue arrows indicate where water can enter under the drip tray support brackets. The red arrows indicate the spot welded flange where it is attached to the base. There is no sealant to keep water from getting under these from the opposite, hidden edge. The rust (if there is any) does not show until the bracket falls off.

Randy - while investigating my other issues with my machine, I took a look at this, and I have the same corrosion. Heck, my is advanced enough I really should have seen it.

Couple of pics (right side then left side):





I am not that rigorous about drying this area; in the past I might make sure to dry it out once a week.

I would say the pics with the rust showing would still be the old model chassy as this model didn't have the splash guard, instead the facicia continued down to the chassy floor which let water run down the front facia to the drip tray rails. To date we still haven't found any rust in the new model chassys as the only way water can get to the chassy floor is when the drip tray overflows, however there is always room for improvement as the rails could be redesigned.

Gorv wrote: To date we still haven't found any rust in the new model chassys as the only way water can get to the chassy floor is when the drip tray overflows, however there is always room for improvement as the rails could be redesigned.

Water can also get under the tray when the user clears the steam wand into the drip tray. This is an common practice for the home user when the machine is not located next to a sink as it might be in a cafe.

The underlying problem is this: How can it be acceptable, on any level, when a large surface of an espresso machine which might possibly be exposed to water is unprotected steel? The design of those supports is WRONG on two levels- it keeps the manufacturer from properly treating the area for rust prevention when the machine is being built, and it prevents the user from drying the area in the event that water does enter that area. Even the placement of the two, protruding captured nuts through which the front feet attach obscure the only access that the user has to the areas in question.

In this particular instance, to say that there is room for improvement is an understatement.

In the meantime, if the electricity stays on here long enough I am writing a conclusion to this which I should be able to get online tomorrow...

Whale wrote:If they would make an espresso machine that would be fool proof to corrosion, wear and the idiots (read me) that might use it in so many unforeseen ways, most of us would not buy it because it would cost too much.

Just expressing a manufacturers point of view.

What do you manufacturer? I'd like to know so I never accidentally buy something from your company. That attitude is the problem. Espresso is a tiny business and so we've all gotten used to buying machines that aren't designed as well as they should be. There is no reason for it other than the industry is living in the dark ages and the market is not quite big enough for someone who understands the problem to risk his life savings to turn the market upside down.

Ira

Whale wrote:Because they are building what we are willing to pay for. If they would make an espresso machine that would be fool proof to corrosion, wear and the idiots (read me) that might use it in so many unforseen ways, most of us would not buy it because it would cost too much...

Unforeseen? How many people on this group have ever forgotten to empty the drip tray and had some spillage, either from overflow or from removing an overfilled tray? How many people have found water under the drip tray after clearing a steam wand a few time? How many have accidentally spilled water when refilling a reservoir? Or maybe pumped some water through the group forgetting that the tray was in the sink? These things happen.

SCIENCE LESSON: Gravity acts on water. It will flow to the lowest point possible and pool there until acted upon by some other force or opportunity to flow. Steel, when exposed to oxygen and/or water will rust- it is called oxidation. Rust itself is "iron oxide." Basic stuff, no? IIRC, rust is covered in 4th grade science.

Now, in the situation at hand, we have an espresso machine with a steel frame and its design leaves a portion of the steel frame, at the lowest point in the machine, unprotected from oxidation. The design itself makes it difficult for the area to be protected during the manufacturing process. Indeed, one might even say that it's design forces the area to hold water in an area inaccessible to the user. Beyond that, this area is specifically subject to water spillage in some instances.. common instances.

Which part of that would be unforeseen by a metallurgist or design engineer?

If that all has sounded a bit pissy, it is for good reason. I have a $1500 machine that makes coffee that has a large area that has rusted in less than three years use. Now, it just might be me, but that is a freakin' lot of money for a machine that makes coffee. It makes really great coffee, but still. I am the kind of person that keeps things around for a LONG time. My motorcycle has been with me since 1981. My wife since 1971. I have a hat I have worn for over 22 years. For a machine like this to exhibit this sort of damage in that sort of time, to ME, is not an acceptable situation.

So, quite the opposite of your attitude, I believe that they did not build what I was paying for. For the lack of a bit of paint or sealant, or a simpler design, I have a machine that is damaged. The solution I came up with (currently shown on my website) not only supports the tray, but is rustproof, is easily removable, and allows the owner to completely dry the area under the tray as necessary. Tomorrow I will show, on my website, a SIMPLE redesign of the drip tray that should have been done as well.

Hi guys,

even on machines that have frames powder coated and no rust-prone areas you can get rust problems. On my Elektra which was a pretty new machine the powder coat simply peeled away in some spots revealing plain steel for rust to eat through. I'm not saying that the whole thing is going to collapse because of it, but it makes you wonder why is a 3500$ machine made like crap? Can't they do a decent job and protect the steel properly, especially if they know that it might rust after a while or that it's going to be covered with water/in a moist environment?

Oh and it's funny how little is sometimes needed to make something right and it makes you wonder who the hell designs these machines?

Regards,
dsc.