Good morning - just discovered this website. Wow - you guys know your stuff.

Have narrowed down new espresso maker to the Vibiemme Double Domobar (with vibratory motor) vs the Izzy Alex Duetto II - which has a rotary motor.

Both seem similar in other aspects. Read with interest the other post which compared these along with another model...

I would be sold on the Vibiemme (if it came with a rotary motor) - thus am leaning that way - but want to know if there is a difference is
1) durability
2) espresso quality

Any quality differences between the two that is noticeable?

Though I dig the idea of a quieter machine - it isnt paramount. Unfortunately - the only Vibiemme they have with rotary and double boilers is a direct connect, and that isnt in the cards right now. (wish they had the dual option, because down the road we might direct connect with a kitchen redo...)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts/opinions.

I haven't used either of those machines, so I can't give you an opinion about how they compare to each other. From what I've heard, either one would be an excellent choice.

Also, with regard to the question of vibe pumps versus rotaries, I don't think anyone's ever been able to show that one is clearly better than the other in terms of their ability to make good espresso. Rotaries are generally quieter than vibe pumps, though some people have modded their vibe machines to make them very quiet. Other than that, I don't think there's any real reason to pick a rotary over a vibe pump machine, everything else being equal.

That said, I will say that some vibe pump machines can be annoyingly loud. My Anita is very noisy, especially when auto-filling the boiler first thing in the morning. I have it on a timer, and when it comes on at 6:30 in the morning it's loud enough to wake me up if I leave the bedroom door open. If there's one thing I'd change on my machine, it would be have a quiet rotary pump instead of a noisy vibe pump.

Hope this helps. Good luck on your search, and let us know which machine you end up getting.

Welcome to H-B!

MCM wrote:Have narrowed down new espresso maker to the Vibiemme Double Domobar (with vibratory motor) vs the Izzy Alex Duetto II - which has a rotary motor.

Sounds like you have done your homework, those are excellent choices!
My first question is "What grinder will you be using with that?"

Beezer wrote:Also, with regard to the question of vibe pumps versus rotaries, I don't think anyone's ever been able to show that one is clearly better than the other in terms of their ability to make good espresso.

Actually, I believe it has been demonstrated that rotary vs. vibe makes no difference in taste.

Beezer wrote:Rotaries are generally quieter than vibe pumps, though some people have modded their vibe machines to make them very quiet.

Indeed, vibe pumps can be very quiet if mounted properly to a heavy frame with sturdy rubber mounts (as is the case with the Olympia Maximatic - it's easily as quiet as my rotary Wega)

Beezer wrote:Other than that, I don't think there's any real reason to pick a rotary over a vibe pump machine, everything else being equal.

I strongly disagree, and I would even assert that anyone who has used both rotary and vibe pump machines would most likely never make such a statement. Rotary pumps generally have a much more robust build than vibe pumps and operate smoother (spinning shaft vs. vibrating piston), and so they tend to last longer. Also, I think the rotary pump setup with integrated pressure limiter is much easier to adjust accurately than the vibe pump with separate OPV

MCM wrote:Though I dig the idea of a quieter machine - it isnt paramount. Unfortunately - the only Vibiemme they have with rotary and double boilers is a direct connect, and that isnt in the cards right now.

I run my direct connect machine from 5-gallon water bottles using a flojet feed pump. The arrangement has been very convenient and virtually worry free for years now.

Thanks for the responses! Per your questions:

JonR10 wrote:Sounds like you have done your homework, those are excellent choices!
My first question is "What grinder will you be using with that?"

I think I am going to go with the Mazzer Mini....good choice?

Have looked into the flojet - just a difficult placement with regards to our cabinet/kitchen set up - though not impossible.

Hooking up to water supply....is this a similar supply that would be furnishing my fridge with water? I could possibly do it ...but man - lots of rerouting...and I need coffee sooner rather than later! (old machine finally broke and was pronounced dead)

JonR10 wrote:I strongly disagree, and I would even assert that anyone who has used both rotary and vibe pump machines would most likely never make such a statement. Rotary pumps generally have a much more robust build than vibe pumps and operate smoother (spinning shaft vs. vibrating piston), and so they tend to last longer. Also, I think the rotary pump setup with integrated pressure limiter is much easier to adjust accurately than the vibe pump with separate OPV

You're right Jon, I haven't used a rotary machine. Maybe if I had, I would see the advantages more clearly. I'm sure you're right about the build quality of a rotary pump, and I do admire a well built machine.

On the other hand, the fact that vibe pumps are so much cheaper to replace is an advantage too. You can ruin an expensive rotary pump if you run your machine dry, and it will cost hundreds of dollars to replace it. Whereas with a vibe pump, you're less likely to destroy the pump in the first place, and even if you do, it's only $50 or so to replace.

Still, if I had it to do over again, I'd be tempted to get a rotary machine for the quieter operation, not to mention the fact that rotary pumps are just cooler and more professional grade than vibe pumps.

MCM wrote:I think I am going to go with the Mazzer Mini....good choice?

I'd say that would be a good match to either of those machines

MCM wrote:Hooking up to water supply....is this a similar supply that would be furnishing my fridge with water?

Yes, you can "Tee" off that line to feed the direct plumb VBM. Do you know the diameter of the water line feeding the fridge?

Beezer wrote:Whereas with a vibe pump, you're less likely to destroy the pump in the first place, and even if you do, it's only $50 or so to replace.

Respectfully I say "bullcookies"

Again - from what documentation or experience do you draw the conclusion that "you're less likely to destroy" a vibe pump as opposed to a rotary pump? I don't know why you think a vibe pump is less likely to fail, to me it seems like errant logic with no basis in reality. Generally, a rotary pump will run for many years all day every day in most commercial machines operating in cafes and coffee shops.

Why would you suppose that not a single commercial espresso machine manufacturer uses vibe pumps in their commercial products? Not one! Plus, a new rotary pump for an espresso machine is generally under $150, so I don't know where this "hundreds or dollars" for a replacement comes from.

A rotary pump can certainly run dry for a limited time with no damage...of course plumbing in generally reduces the chances of that happening, and many tank models have low water shutoff features. On the other hand, running a vibe pump for a whole minute (wet) or more than a few seconds (dry) will almost certainly cause damage.

Vibe pumps are inherently less reliable due to the violent piston action. The vibe pump operates by violently slamming a piston against endstops at a very fast rate. I burned out 3 vibe pumps on my former machine in just over one year but my rotary Wega has been going strong for almost 4 years now.

Commercial machines don't use vibe pumps because they can't take the duty cycle. Vibe pumps are max 40s on, 50s off (or something in the neighborhood of those numbers).
Anyway, you burning out 3 vibe pumps in a year doesn't really stroke with the fact that there are very little stories to be found of people burning up vibe pumps. Maybe you've just got bad luck.

Does sound like a run of bad luck for J0on with the vibe pump burnout rate.

My Isomac has been plugging away with the same vibe pump for about seven years but my buddy's Anita needed a new pump in less than three years. That said... his Anita has always been way noisier than my Isomac but when he replaced the pump it got much quieter than it had ever been - even when it was brand new.

I have an ECM with internal rotary pump in the basement and look forward to getting it up and running when time permits but the noise level of the vibe doesn't bother me.

Can't speak to the experience of other brands but the Procon pump/motor assemblies are nearly bullet proof. I've seen only one Procon wear out after many years of daily commercial service and that was fixable with a rebuild kit. I have yet to ever see the motor part burned out although I'm sure it must happen.

Bluecold wrote:Commercial machines don't use vibe pumps because they can't take the duty cycle. Vibe pumps are max 40s on, 50s off (or something in the neighborhood of those numbers).

Um....and you don't think this fact is indicative of overall reliability?

Bluecold wrote:Anyway, you burning out 3 vibe pumps in a year doesn't really stroke with the fact that there are very little stories to be found of people burning up vibe pumps. Maybe you've just got bad luck.

While it's almost certainly true that I had bad luck with vibe pumps on that one machine, I also own (and have owned) several other vibe pump machines. Sometimes the pumps last a long time and sometimes they do not. OTOH, my experience with rotary pumps is that they tend to be more "bulletproof" by a wide margin.

Seriously though, if you think there is a shortage of stories about vibe pump failures then I'd guess you don't peruse as many coffee-related forum posts as I do. In several years of active participation I would conservatively estimate that online forum reports of vibe pump failures outnumber similar reports of rotary pump failures 10 to 1 (and it's quite possible that comparison should be more like 20 or even 100 to 1)

As an unscientific test, you can try a simple comparative google search ("vibratory pump failure") vs. ("rotary pump failure") and see how many results pop up - top line says "Results 1 - 10 of about xxxxx"

+1 on the rotary pump. This a significant upgrade that impacts every pour, every PF wiggle, every flush. Honestly, I don't understand the logic in manufacturing a $2K+ machine and then outfitting it with a vibe pump. It's hard to imagine going back to the buzz of a vibe pump after experiencing the purr of a rotary.

JonR10 wrote:Respectfully I say "bullcookies"

Um... is that even possible?

JonR10 wrote: my experience with rotary pumps is that they tend to be more "bulletproof" by a wide margin.

I don't say that they are infallible. They just do not -in general- break down nearly as fast as you describe, and your arguments are wrong.

Um....and you don't think this fact is indicative of overall reliability?

No, i don't. Electric coils just heat up. And if they heat up too much, they melt. Simple as that.

In several years of active participation I would conservatively estimate that online forum reports of vibe pump failures outnumber similar reports of rotary pump failures 10 to 1 (and it's quite possible that comparison should be more like 20 or even 100 to 1)

Which is to be expected since vibepumps probably outsell rotary pumps 100:1 (hell, probably a lot more).

Also, if silence and reliability are top concerns, then i'd search for a spring lever machine.

Bluecold wrote:Which is to be expected since vibepumps probably outsell rotary pumps 100:1 (hell, probably a lot more).

Of course you surely realize that this statement doesn't "stroke" with your earlier statement that there are very few stories to be found of people burning up vibe pumps.

Simply put, 100% of the people I know that have used both vibe and rotary pump espresso machines at home strongly prefer rotary pumps even though it has no effect on the espresso quality itself.

You may have the last words if you choose, I've said all I can (and more than I should have) on this topic.


EDIT:

RapidCoffee wrote:Um... is that even possible?

I believe it's only legally allowed in Texas and Oklahoma but I'm open to being corrected on that.

I've owned several vibe pump machines, and I've never had to replace a pump (knock on wood). This is despite some pretty hard use, including accidentally running the machine dry and running the pump for longer than recommended. So I believe that vibe pumps may be durable than people give them credit for. I'm sure they wouldn't hold up to heavy use in a commercial establishment, but for most home consumers they're just fine.

Considering how much cheaper vibe pumps are to replace than rotaries, they seem like a pretty good deal. But I do agree that if I were paying nearly $2,000 for a machine, I'd prefer to have a rotary for the added quietness and the generally more beefy build quality.

Anyway, I think we've beaten this particular dead horse quite enough.

In addition to all said about the difference
the peak to reach pressure is faster from a rotary plumbed
then from a vibe pump.

stefano65 wrote:In addition to all said about the difference
the peak to reach pressure is faster from a rotary plumbed then from a vibe pump.

Actually, this is a good point. Vibe pumps offer a bit of preinfusion, due to the slower ramp up of pressure. (Not an issue on the OP's machines, which feature the preinfusing E61 grouphead.)

You folks are entirely too knowledgable about these things! Well - appreciate the advice. And in the end - I have chosen to buck up - get the water plumbed to the kitchen and go with the direct connect. (My wife shot me that look of - "you want me to move around a 70 lb machine to pour water into it?" - and since its a gift for mothers day...well....decision was made)

Vibiemme Double Boiler PID/Rotary Vane Pump with the direct connect.
Mazzo Mini grinder.


One last question

My water line is coming off the home water softener - is that sufficient to soften the water? (Was told from the person at 1st-line it was - but never stray away from a second opinion)

Look forward to sharing my experience with everyone. Thanks again for the advice.

Paul since you talked to us as well,
the hardness of your water will be the answer to your question

we have hard water and we are on a well
so we have a main one and one only for the espresso machine
only for the espresso machine

but listen to the company that you'll be buying from since they will be the one to hear from you if there is scale ( which by the way is not cover under any warranty)
I'll be better safe then sorry
but test your water

MCM wrote:decision was made...
Vibiemme Double Boiler PID/Rotary Vane Pump with the direct connect

After much debate I've come to the same conclusion for my new machine, now just getting one in Canada

MCM wrote:Vibiemme Double Boiler PID/Rotary Vane Pump with the direct connect.
Mazzo Mini grinder.

My water line is coming off the home water softener - is that sufficient to soften the water?

Wow, great starter setup. A far cry from my steam toy plus whirly blade grinder. Kids these days...

In case it hasn't been mentioned, you'll want a pressure regulator on the input water line to the machine. I'd recommend a water (taste) filter as well as a softener.