In the land of real world experience, I have yet to suffer a pump failure using a vibe pump. (Sorry, Jon; your failures are real, to be sure, in your life, but are not indicative of vibe pumps in life generally.)

On the other hand, I've never had a problem with a rotary pump, either . . . at least in an espresso machine. Any and all problems I've experienced with rotary pumps were within a winery -- where they did break down rather frequently, but only during the harvest . . .

My own personal preference is for rotary, but only due to the noise factor. I've yet to discover any sort of qualitative difference.

Cheers,
Jason

most of my espresso machines were vibe, including 2 HX (Pasquini Livia90 and Mini Grimac) and the last 3 rotary (Grimac One Group, Elektra La Delisiosa[project] and SanRemo Capri) and in my opinion hands down rotary pump are "better".

probably is nothing you'll see "in the cup", but they are a pleasure to use.. super silence and a lot more friendly in those descaling days..



Juanjo

In my opinion, the extra $300 (~ +20%) that is invested in the rotary water pump system is misplaced (since it makes no difference in the cup). As a home user, I could care less how it sounds or if it can produce 100 back-to-back shots without overheating.

The right place for the machine designers to be investing the extra $300 would be in improving the brew head, dispersion and basket design (since these things actually make a taste difference). I think Dalla Corte has the right idea with the Mini (but like most new designs, the price is still a bit too high).

As long as buyers encourage the designers to take the "easy" design route and simply shoe-horn in 50 year old technology that makes no difference in the cup (like the E-61 as well), they will continue to design it that way.

In my opinion, the rotary pump is nice, but overkill at home. But if anyone is interested in a fancy pump, I'll gladly sell you a Rocketdyne Pump that will make you the envy of the HB world.

Endo, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, bear in mind that others may, and in fact, do disagree. All things being equal, I would prefer to have a rotary pump in my home espresso machine. Now, I never would have said that until I actually had one. Indeed, like you (and many others here), my initial thoughts were along the lines of how loud can it be or who cares how loud it is -- it's only on for 20-30 seconds and so on . . . Keeping in mind, I had machines with vibe pumps for nearly 30 years, the noise level of the vibe pump only seemed loud to me in comparison once I got my rotary -- and now, every time I use my vibe-equipped machine (which I do five days a week; it now resides in my office), I am struck by how loud it is . . .

Also, keep in mind the noise level of the vibe pump in a Rancilio Silvia or Gaggia Classic is indeed quieter than the noise level in many "prosumer" machines (bigger pumps, I suspect).

No difference in the cup. None. But, for lack of a better term, there is the "live with" factor, and pulling 4-5 doubles in the morning can get really, really loud!

BTW, when I had my Gaggia, I too never worried about "if it can produce 100 back-to-back shots without overheating." Friends came over, and I made coffee after dinner using drip or a press pot -- I never turned the Gaggia on. Today, as long as we're a party of 12 or less, I can make everyone an espresso or cappuccino . . . at least I can offer, which is something I never would have dreamed of doing with a Gaggia/Rancilio home machine . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

I think we can agree that the rotary is more luxury than necessity. Justifiability is highly subjective. (I'm not knocking luxury).

Depends on what you're doing with your machine.
I would never (for example) rely on a vibe pump machine in a catering situation (much less a cafe scenario).

And fundamentally (by your logic) a pump is a luxury. After all, a lever works fine.

Exactly Chris. I was speaking from the perspective of home use. With regard to the luxury comment folks comment mostly on how quiet rotaries are, my point is that vibe or rotary they both essentially pump water (a very simplistic point). Since there is no (as far as I've seen) documentation proving one is superior in the cup I'll tend to think folks go rotary for the luxury of a quiet machine. Very general comments for sure I should have clarified.

Tim, I agree, and context is everything. I am very fortunate to be able to afford the machines I have purchased over the years, and never lose sight of the fact that for many people a moka pot is all they can afford. (Look how many posts that ask for a great espresso machine for around $100.) What is essential to one person is indeed a luxury for someone else.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that I consider a rotary pump as essential, but it certainly is preferable . . . for me.

water wand do even less "in the cup"
the gauges in the machine!?
those are also luxuries.. but no one seems to care of paying few extra bucks for them..

even if is just because they are more silence and last longer than vibe.. Rotary Pumps ARE BETTER.. is so hard to admit that.!

Your argument is flawed Juanjo. This is a debate on types of pumps, not on pump versus no pump. Your analogy doesn't apply unless you want to debate types of gauges or types of water wands (I do not).

And no I won't say that one pump is always better than the other one because (like its been repeated here) it depends on its application, is that so hard to admit?

*edited for spelling error

Tim

one day you'll have a rotary pump and we will say it together 'rotary pumps are bettttteeerrrr '

PS
there machines with rotary pumps with water tank (no need for plumbing)... yes, they cost more...for a good reason..

If and when my Anita is beyond repair maybe, but still I can't justify that expense for my application, plumed in or not.

Vibe just does not bother me. Enjoy your rotary.

malachi wrote:And fundamentally (by your logic) a pump is a luxury. After all, a lever works fine.

Nowadays a lever is luxury, vibepumps cost less to manufacture. But ofcourse levers are waaaayy better.

BlueCold,

are you saying that lever machines are better than pump machines?

if so you should start a new thread "lever vs pump" so I can disagree with you...


I had few lever machines (La Graziella, La Peppina, Luzzo, La Pavoni and few others) and I was never able to get close to the end result "in the cup" as with my pump machine at the time.
BUT.. I'm pretty clueless when it comes to lever..

Juanjo wrote:one day you'll have a rotary pump and we will say it together 'rotary pumps are bettttteeerrrr '

Yes they are "better", in the sense that they can pump water for a longer period of time with failing. But as almost everyone has already stated, they cost more and are "no better" at making espresso.

A brew pressure gauge of some sort is required for a rotary pump machine to set the brew pressure. Now, you could argue that this requirement makes a rotary pump even more or a luxury...

I own a rotary, plumbed in machine and love it.
No reservoir to fill, clean or run down.
Much less noise than the rotary pump machine that I had before.
Fantastic brew temperature control (not a PID by the way).
Ability to make as many drinks (milk or not) as I have ever needed without loss of steam or temperature.
Ability to save energy by turning the steam boiler off when it is not needed.

I would also say that an HX machine is not the best choice for a catering situation. In that case you would want a double boiler so that you don't have to worry about temperature surfing as you make coffee, tea and milk drinks.

MDL wrote:I own a rotary, plumbed in machine and love it.
No reservoir to fill, clean or run down.

I own a vibe, pour-over machine and love it.
No plumbing to install, or leak (another $300 expense along with the rotary that I avoided).

Sorry guys, there is a flip side to every argument you want to make. While I enjoy debating details of the machine design, bottom line is, at the $2000 level, there are very few bad choices that you can make, and I doubt you would find any is actually much "better" than any other (especially in a blind taste test). Just pick whatever suits your needs, taste and budget. Whatever you choose, your coffee selection and technique will always be an order of magnitude more important (and they come for free!!)

By the way MDL, your Vivaldi is the best.

Not better. Preferred.

Endo,

yes, they are more expensive, and they may no make difference in the test..
still.. rotary pumps are "better" than vibe..
can't imagine any other reason why a machine with rotary pump cost $300 more..