RapidCoffee wrote:Honestly, I don't understand the logic in manufacturing a $2K+ machine and then outfitting it with a vibe pump.

I assume cost and size are the decisive factors. Many one group cases simply cannot accommodate the size of a motor and rotary pump. Some manufacturers manage to squeeze them in, but that can mean working in cramped quarters when it's time for repairs and adjustments.

HB wrote:I assume cost and size are the decisive factors. Many one group cases simply cannot accommodate the size of a motor and rotary pump. Some manufacturers manage to squeeze them in, but that can mean working in cramped quarters when it's time for repairs and adjustments.

Costwise, a vibe pump seems like poor economy on high end prosumer machines. It's a deal breaker for folks like me. Sizewise, it makes sense - especially if the target audience demands a small case and/or a water reservoir as a pourover option.

JonR10 wrote:Respectfully I say "bullcookies" Why would you suppose that not a single commercial espresso machine manufacturer uses vibe pumps in their commercial products? Not one! Plus, a new rotary pump for an espresso machine is generally under $150, so I don't know where this "hundreds or dollars" for a replacement comes from.

What are the odds, I've only worked on two commercial machines and both used vibe pumps. La Cimbali used vibe pumps in their older Junior Ds and La Pavoni uses them in their 1 group pour-over Pubs.

Multi-group machines have to use a rotary because a single vibe pump can't generate the pressure for two shots at one time but I don't see the big deal about using them in a light usage 1 group machine. Sure vibe pumps fail. But I've seen enough 10 and 15+ year old pumps so that I am not worried about their reliability. That said, I could design a machine that would need frequent vibe pump replacements. Mount the pump right next to the boiler and heat would bake the rubber and plastic parts. But that would be silly.

Wesley

coffee_no_sugar wrote:What are the odds, I've only worked on two commercial machines and both used vibe pumps. La Cimbali used vibe pumps in their older Junior Ds and La Pavoni uses them in their 1 group pour-over Pubs.

Fair enough, my statement was wrong.
Some light commercial (i.e. pourover) machines use vibe pumps.

I have had a couple of vibe pump machines and a couple of rotary pump machines. I have had one vibe pump fail and no rotary pumps fail. Both have generally been reliable. The difference in the perception of quality with the rotary, in terms of general feel and lack of noise, is enough to make me love the rotary machines and not want another vibe pump machine if I have good alternatives.

BillK

Follow-on discussion split to Risk of leakage for plumbed-in espresso machines?

JonR10 wrote:Fair enough, my statement was wrong.
Some light commercial (i.e. pourover) machines use vibe pumps.

fwiw, cimbali use vibe pumps in 2gr commercial models too. I have 2x m31 in my 'shop now (for reasons unrelated to their pumps ).

The Italian manufacturers I've talked to use vibe pumps for tank machines, rotary pumps for plumb-ins. Simple as that. All of them recommend that rotary pump machines should only be used when attached to a permanent water supply.

In my own experience, you KNOW when a vibe pump is running dry by the sound. You find out when a rotary is running dry when the tech gives you the bill.

Alan

Alan Frew wrote:In my own experience, you KNOW when a vibe pump is running dry by the sound. You find out when a rotary is running dry when the tech gives you the bill.

I've run a rotary dry (from a tank) for a total of 1-2 seconds. By accident. And you can definitely tell from the sound! Granted, it's not as impressive as with my old vibe machine, but it's pretty obvious - gurgling, and loud.

(I disconnected and reprimed the pipes inside the machine before restarting - and it sounds back to normal now ).

I'm rebuilding a Futurmat Rimini and thought some here might want to see what the rotary pump looked like when I removed it. This was a new machine in Y2K, used lightly (according to the PO) for 4 years. FWIW, no scale in the boiler

Jake
Reddick Fla.

I sent the pump out to be bench checked, rebuilt...here's what it looks like now. JC Beverage in MN did the overhaul


IIRC, I paid $55 for the rebuild including shipping back to me. So with my shipping to get it there, I have about $70 into this pump to have it professionally rebuilt

Jake
Reddick Fla.

If we're going to discuss this using small samples as evidence, I have a too-small sample to add.

I've owned 5 machines for a total of 16 years, 4 with vibe pumps, and one with a rotary (still far short of what's needed to draw any valid conclusions).

The only one that ever needed a pump replacement was the rotary.

I installed a time-delay relay to allow 5 seconds of line-pressure preinfusion before the pump started up, and the shots became more consistent. As for noise, there's no doubt that rotaries are inherently quieter, but mine was not quieter than similarly priced semi-commercial machines because of the buzzing of the machine shell when the pump operates.

It certainly was convenient to have it plumbed in, but that brings its own problems, too. The drain from my machine used to back up occasionally, seeping dirty water all over the countertop. I finally began snaking it out every few months in my regular maintenance routine and the problem stopped.

And replacing a rotary pump may be a little more difficult than replacing a vibe pump, but it's like 3 on a scale of 10 vs a 2. The rebuild route is not expensive at all.

For me, the answer to "vibe or rotary" depends on your situation. A machine with a good-sized drip tray and a reservoir that's easy to fill is not much less convenient than a plumbed in machine -- for home use, that is. I've just bought another pourover vibe pump machine because I'm moving to a new place with a granite countertop, and I don't want to drill a hole in it.

I'm sure one of the reasons we see a high percentage of commercial machines with rotary pumps is the productivity gains when you're pulling shot after shot, all day long. That alone is a sufficient justification for a rotary in such a setting.

Rick

Two other important points to consider:

1. Rotary pumps also have electric motors and bearings. More parts that vibe pump setup doesn't have. These parts also have a failure rate. When rotaries leak, as many do, the damage can be more extensive if it takes out any of these other components.

2. If you need to replace a vibe pump, usually it's much simpler.

If you are interested in a good example of the type of problems each pump system can cause, have a look at the S1cafe forum. The Vivaldi is unique in that it has both a vibe AND rotary version (and many owners) so all thing being equal, you can compare the types of issues with both systems. Just keep in mind the rotary version has been around much longer.

Which would I buy? Pour-over home use (< 10 shots/day) = vibe pump. Plumbed-in commercial use (> 10 shots/day) = Rotary pump.

A single speed bicycle fails far less often than a diesel panel truck.
But I wouldn't want to deliver full bags of green coffee on the bike.

I saw a guy delivering a fridge on a bicycle in Shanghai a few months ago. It's fine if you know how.

Rick

When I got my machine I had a dead rotary pump, it had set too long, almost 5 years.

I had a friend let me have a used rotary pump, it was a bit noisy. When I pulled a shot it did make a slightly changed sound.

I sent my original pump in for a rebuild and it was ~$60. I put the rebuilt pump in and I have a machine so quiet that you can hardly tell that the pump is on.

If you want a vibe pump, that is ok with me. But I have heard the difference between a good rotary pump and a bad one, and you will love the sound of a good one.

The sound you hear from an espresso machine, vibe or rotary, is partly influenced by how well damped the pump is. Vibe pumps DO vibrate more (go figure . . . ) but a rotary pump equipped machine can also be noisy. Mine was noisy when it was new, and when I replaced the leaking pump with a new -- not rebuilt -- pump. I think good damping is why a friend's vibe machine was quieter than my rotary. The REALLY quiet machines generally have remote pumps.

There are certainly some inexperienced people who don't know what it's like to live with pour-over vibe machine or a fully plumbed rotary. After 16 years of home espresso on 5 machines, I'm not one of them. I made my choice knowing full well what the pluses and minuses are. And it's the right choice for my situation, just as yours is probably the right choice for yours.

Cheers,

Rick

Java Man wrote:The sound you hear from an espresso machine, vibe or rotary, is partly influenced by how well damped the pump is. Vibe pumps DO vibrate more (go figure . . . ) but a rotary pump equipped machine can also be noisy. Mine was noisy when it was new, and when I replaced the leaking pump with a new -- not rebuilt -- pump. I think good damping is why a friend's vibe machine was quieter than my rotary. The REALLY quiet machines generally have remote pumps.

Very true. I installed small pieces of velcro (just the cushy part) at strategic places on my QM Alexia in order to dampen the sound, and it worked quite well. I upgraded to a Vetrano (really more of a side-grade since the quality of espresso is no different between machines; just my opinion) because I wanted a plumbed-in machine. I was a bit surprised to find that the Vetrano is no quieter (decibel wise, though I haven't actually measured it with a DB meter) than my "modified" Alexia, but one thing is for sure; the hum of the rotary is a much more pleasing sound than the vibe.

One day I will crack open the Vetrano to see if I can apply a similar sound deadening procedure to get it to be as quiet as possible without relocating the pump to a remote location.

The vibe pump is reciprocating while the rotary is rotational. My gut feeling tells me the pump that rotates rather than moving back-and-forth would be more reliable.

Still, these kinds of simple assumptions are often wrong since it is often more about the reliability of all the "little parts" that make up the system than the principle of the pump itself.

The only way to know for sure is to get the MTBF data (Mean Time Between Failure) from the pump suppliers based on their testing. I would think anybody on the engieering side of the espresso business would have this data and be able to settle this question of reliability. After that, operating cost can be calculated by dividing the pump cost by the MTBUF to get a number in terms of $/hr. Anyone?