Over the past 2 years, I went from a Silvia to Breville 920XL to La Spaziale Lucca Mini, to finally the Profitec Pro 700. Like many, I have to put the unit under cabinets. And, the cabinets have trim along the bottom. I barely have 17" clearance. The Profitec is advertised as being 16.5" high. Since I also have to slide the machine to get to reservoir, I needed a strategy to move easily. I used the furniture sliders for the feet of the unit. Works great. With average locking of portifilter, the unit doesn't move. But, if I really lock down tight, it will move.

Lastly, I found you can unscrew the cup rail from underneath the cover. So, my machine fits easily under the cabinet. I currently have to use the prong of a fork to lift the cover a little to slide it out to get to reservoir. I plan to add a bolt so I can easily lift the cover a tad to easily slide it off. I will have a more detailed review of my use of the machine once I have it for a few weeks of use. I use a Ceado E37S grinder and I roast my own beans using the newly upgraded Hottop B2K+

navystan wrote:Since I also have to slide the machine to get to reservoir, I needed a strategy to move easily. I used the furniture sliders for the feet of the unit. Works great. With average locking of portifilter, the unit doesn't move. But, if I really lock down tight, it will move.

I've seen a user put the unit on heavy duty drawer rails. This should add about an inch to the machine, which you should have if you removed the cup rail. I for one removed the cover entirely, and will probably buff out the trim under the cabinets to be able to put the cover back. I'm missing a few mm only. Anyway, I decided to plumb in, so now I rarely have to pull the machine forward. The 920XL is superbly designed for this though.

I will have a more detailed review of my use of the machine once I have it for a few weeks of use. I use a Ceado E37S grinder and I roast my own beans using the newly upgraded Hottop B2K+

Interested in your thoughts about the Pro 700 --- especially since you seem to have a bit of experience with many different machines. The Pro 700 is, in my newbie opinion, pretty awesome. But on my unit, it seems that water runs so hot as to cause over-extraction at the default settings. I have to set brew boiler temperature ridiculously low in order to have adequate testing shots.

Also interested in your thoughts about the E37S as it's a contender for my next grinder (currently using a Baratza Vario).

Welcome Stan! FYI I checked the manual and I don't see anything about a low water alarm, I believe the display will turn off when the reservoir gets too low.

neutro wrote:Interested in your thoughts about the Pro 700 --- especially since you seem to have a bit of experience with many different machines. The Pro 700 is, in my newbie opinion, pretty awesome. But on my unit, it seems that water runs so hot as to cause over-extraction at the default settings. I have to set brew boiler temperature ridiculously low in order to have adequate testing shots.

I thought this looked to be the case when I first inspected the Pro 700 before start at Clive, and I think the ECM Controvento we just received also may be running a bit hot. But I figured this issue would have been quantified early by one of the many scace users, documented and sent to the vendors and Profitec. What brewing temperatures have you liked, and what type of roast are you using?

@BP

clivecoffee wrote: I checked the manual and I don't see anything about a low water alarm, I believe the display will turn off when the reservoir gets too low.

Indeed, the display turns off and the pump cannot be activated when the tank is low. This happens even if in the middle of a shot, without a warning. One of the few things that could be improved IMHO on the Pro 700.

But I figured this issue would have been quantified early by one of the many scace users, documented and sent to the vendors and Profitec. What brewing temperatures have you liked, and what type of roast are you using?

I don't really want to hijack another thread about my over-extraction problems but since the thread is about tips on using the Pro 700, well perhaps it's on topic after all.

Indeed take what I say with a grain of salt as I think I'm one of the only Pro 700 users on HB complaining that much about temperature. Reviewers consistently say the Pro 700 produces great shots so perhaps the problem is specific to my unit, somehow.

In terms of coffees, in the past six months I've tried lots of different coffees and finally switched to reputable Canadian online sellers such as Social, Pilot, Bridgehead and 49th Parallel. While I seem to prefer their darkest roasts (e.g. 49th's Blue Sky or Pilot's Big Bro), they are not that dark, and I also tried much lighter roast such as Social's People's Liberation and People's Daily. The hopper is currently filled with Social's ARDI Sidama (Ethiopian Guji SO, roasted medium dark).

Out of the box the machine came set in degrees Fahrenheit with the recommended settings. This included a brew boiler temperature of 200F and an offset of 34F. With these settings, I could distinctly hear flash boiling using the group. This is not that surprising as 200 + 34 = 234F is only 21F less than the steam boiler.

Looking at the settings in degrees Celsius, one can also see that they are not equivalent. The recommended settings in Celsius are 93C for the brew boiler (about 199.4F, close enough) but 14C for the offset. The 34F offset translates to 19C so right there, using the recommended settings in degrees Celsius, the boiler runs 5C cooler than with the recommended settings in Fahrenheit.

Following @erics's advices, I decided to use degrees Celsius and set the offet to zero (so as to only have one parameter to check). Note that when changing units, the PID controller tries to convert the settings but there are bugs in the conversion. After switching units, somehow the 0F offset for the steam boiler was converted to a very high offset in Celsius, and the steam boiler proceeded to heat up. I noticed this and stopped the machine when it reached 1.5 bar. Had I not stopped the machine it would have been a mess as I guess the over-pressure safety valves would have let go of the steam boiler content inside the machine.

(I duly contacted Profitec with the unit conversion bug and recommended settings discrepancy but have not heard from them since).

So with an offset of 0C, the brew boiler temperature (t1) setting that I use with the ARDI Sidama is 92C. 93 is okay but anything above that is almost undrinkable. Thus I'm running the brew boiler 14-15C *below* the recommended setting (93C + 14C offset), which is an enormous difference.

I have no idea if the fact that found 93C to be a sweet spot is a coincidence or if there is another bug in the PID controller which makes the display show zero for the offset while internally applying the default 14C offset. This could also be a measurement calibration error I guess. I have no idea if this is on my unit only. Perhaps the PID controller unit is in a weird state after the conversion bugs, but I have no idea if it is possible to factory-reset it, and if so, how.

I have not used a Scace to measure the true temperature coming out of the group on my unit and found the digital thermometer + styrofoam cup method to be widely inaccurate. I plan on borrowing a thermal IR camera from job to try and get a good reading, just to see if the water itself is at a reasonable temperature.

In the mean time, it took me a long time (months!) to have the guts to try such low temperatures. But at last, I'm getting shots that taste great. No other tweak in grind settings, dose, etc. could get me this with the scalding temperatures the group was outputting out of the box.

It is PROFITEC who needs to "step up to the plate" and publish values for P, I, D, and offset in both degrees F and degrees C such that the pdf which Dan K. uploaded to the downloads section ( /downloads/ ) can be updated.

While these values can be user adjustable based upon duty cycle, specific numbers can be provided based upon a defined (and published) duty cycle.

Normally, I would say that the assigned values for P, I, and D are independent of the temperature unit (C or F) but surely the offset is NOT. In the case of this Gicar PID unit, that knowledge, unfortunately, remains with Gicar and Gicar's customers (Profitec, along with many others).

I have the PDF, just need to know where to send. Here's a screen shot in the meantime.


@BP

The recommended values for all parameters in Celsius and Fahrenheit can be found on Profitec's site (choose the English logo, then go to the Pro 700 product page, and finally the downloads tab).

The problem I have with those is that the offsets they recommend in each units are not equivalent, as a 34F temperature difference is not equal to a 14C difference. (For temperature differences the conversion factor is just 5/9 or 9/5 depending on your starting unit).

Furthermore in my case I have to set my machine much colder to get good shots, but your mileage may vary.

Beware the conversion bugs while changing units though. Also for some reason unused parameter E3 was set to a high value (45); I set it to zero but it haven't and shouldn't have made anything.

The P,I and, D parameters could depend on units or not --- this depends if temperatures are normalized internally or not. In my experience these parameters are fine in each units but I have a slight overshoot. It should be possible to adjust them so as to get similar performances but without overshoot. It's not bothering me that much though as the machine recovers in seconds after a shot.

The problem I have with those is that the offsets they recommend in each units are not equivalent, as a 34F temperature difference is not equal to a 14C difference.

You are, obviously, correct . . . hence my statement that It is PROFITEC who needs to "step up to the plate" and publish values for P, I, D, and offset in both degrees F and degrees C based on published testing methodology.

Well, I've had the Profitec Pro 700 for 3 days now. Had it delivered by Clive Coffee (Ben!) this past Thursday. I've turned out about 60-80 shots over the past 3 days and overall I'm really impressed.

Here's a run-down of my setup for testing:

1. New Profitec Pro 700. Changed PID setting for both steam and boiler to operate at the same time; requires 20 AMPS. Otherwise, I'm using defaults like brew temperature of 200 F.
2. Ceado E37S large burr grinder (I get 18-20g dose in about 4-5 seconds)
3. For most of my testing, I used Counter Culture "Big Trouble" beans. Although I roast my own beans, I wanted to establish a baseline. So, what I did was go to my local espresso bar and had them make me espresso shot, 6 oz cappuccino, and 10 oz latte using Counter Culture Big Trouble beans. This gave me a baseline of what I should expect for taste for each drink.

Here's my observations and thoughts:

1. Best shot quality I've had for the three previous machines I had before. I've had the Rancillo Silvia, Breville 920XL, La Spaziale Lucca Mini, and now the Profitec 700. By far, the 700 is the most forgiving.
2. Shot quality was as good if not better than the local shop. Certainly a lot of factors and even the barista may have not pulled the best possible shots that day. But, in any case, I was pleasantly surprised I could pull shots close to the quality of a commercial espresso machine.
3. Took no time to learn and use the steam wand. It steamed a little slower than the Lucca mini, but that certainly made texturing easier.
4. The solid build is evident. I did however have to make a few adjustments to make the unit fit under my cabinets as I mentioned earlier. I took off cup rail (just unscrew bolts that hold it on) and put furniture sliders under feed to unit. Just enough weight to keep the unit from moving when I lock in portafilter. If I want to lock in tighter, I just place my free hand on the tray as I lock in.
5. It's odd the portifilter is not centered over tray (I think I've seen this posted elsewhere). When I'm setting up and dialing in a shot, I weigh output by putting scale under portafilter. I have to put it very close to the front of tray to setup for shot to go into shot glass. So, in summary, the portafilter is closer to the front of the drip tray, not in the center. Once I dial in a shot, I just put my cup right under portafilter and it's not a big issue.
6. Left gauge is loose (saw someone post this too). Will tighten up in the next few days. I notice it as I'm cleaning up the machine and wiping over or near it it moves. Just annoying, but an easy matter to tighten up.
7. For my test shots using Counter Culture Big Trouble bean, I dialed in a good recipe of 20g in and 26-30g out in 28 seconds. Nice strength for 10 oz latte. For smaller drinks, I dialed in 18.5g to 19g in and 28-30g out in 25-28 seconds. Again, great taste for cappuccinos and straight espresso shots.
8. I like to practice and finish up steaming milk and pulling shot to finish just about the same time. However, the lever to pull makes it hard for a right handed person to steam and reach over to pull up lever when milk is done. Design wise, I would have preferred a simple button rather than lever to activate shot extraction. A simple push button would make it easier to pull and steam milk at the same time. In any case, I did learn quickly how to maneuver my hands to steam and pull shot, but it's not a simple and elegant movement.
9. Clean up is fast and easy. Awaiting manual since it was missing from the unit. I saw older manual online, but not sure if everything still applies. Did some basic backflush cleaning which is fast and easy.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the Profitec Pro 700. I will post more observations after I've pulled a few hundred shots and tested some of my own roasted beans.

Here's a few pictures:

clivecoffee wrote:I have the PDF, just need to know where to send. Here's a screen shot in the meantime.

You could send the pdf to Dan Kehn BUT as the boiler offset in Celsius is 14 and that offset in Fahrenheit is 34, I would say that something is amiss . . . wouldn't you?