sheygetz wrote: So, there's actually two criteria. To put this differently:

*How much does any given machine overheat with, say, 30 to 60 minutes between shots?
*How much of a temperature loss occurs while the shot's being pulled?

(Is that about right, guys?)

Actually there's a third; consistency shot after shot on repeated shots. That's where bigger is better. BTW, the Junior has an absolute monster combined heat exchanger/group that probably means more to its shot after shot stability than the boiler.

On the second criterion any machine with a heavy group is great. The E61s, the Junior do very well. Dual Boilers with heavy groups do even better.

On the first criterion, the dual boilers shine. Properly engineered like the current Synesso and the fresh off the line LMs, they do the same after idling or in heavy traffic. A well built home dual boiler like the Brewtus or S1 have a two C rise after the first shot (cold nose). If I had one, I'd set it so the first shot was the temp I wanted, reset it for company, and make the first (cold) shot a latte.

In terms of being able to make 3 or 4 shots in a row at wildly different temperatures, nothing works as well as an overheating E61. A few minutes wait, the right flush, and one has any shot temeprature from 100C to 85C. No waiting for the PID to redo the brew boiler. This is why I'm not switching machines. I freely admit not being able to taste a 0.1C or most of the time even a 1C temperature difference.

I revived this thread to see if there might be any additional comments at this point.

The reason it is on my mind is that I'm going to look at a Brasilia Portofino tomorrow, which would be quite a bit cheaper ( and a whole lot riskier ) than a Vetrano.

Anybody?

Just a thought . . . I am far less "into" this than many are, in that I love good espresso but don't delve into science as much as some do (perhaps as much as I should) . . . so I have little to contribute here other than an observation.

sheygetz wrote:Now, while there are quite a few 1-group machines of commercial pedigree around, very few fit the restrictions of regular kitchen setups. Add to that, that some people aren't willing to have a 5+ liter boiler

A 1-group Elektra A3/T1 has a 6.0L boiler, and there are a number of people here who use them. So, too, does a 1-group Faema Legend/Jubile. The 2-group versions of these machines have 9.0 and 11.0 liter boilers, respectively.

The 1-group Elektra A3/T1 runs at 2000 watts (110v*), while the 2-group is 3700 watts (220v). The 1-group Faema runs around 3500 watts (on 220v), while the 2-group is 4000 watts (220v).

Just in the FWIW Dept.

Cheers,
Jason

* Available in 220v also.

It's nice at a party to be able to do espresso's/latte's and only be limited by my own skills and not waiting for the temperature of the machine to catch up. That said, you need a lot of counter space and an understanding spouse.

BTW: I run my T1 machine at 13 amps instead of 18 since I didn't have a dedicated 20 amp outlet. (Which is being rectified during the kitchen remodel that is in progress). I insulated the boiler to make up for the difference in recovery ability.

Mark

Different use cases, different priorities, different solutions.

Like saying, "would it be better to buy a used John Deere 1600 Turbo or a new John Deere X300 to mow my lawn?"

malachi wrote:Like saying, "would it be better to buy a used John Deere 1600 Turbo or a new John Deere X300 to mow my lawn?"

Or maybe, "would it be better to buy a used mazzer Super Jolly or a new Mazzer Mini to grind my beans?"