Martin wrote:My $2k machine (less the Ebay'd Tea) was not limited by my financial wherewithall, but by the anticipated gain of quality of shot---I would have spent more if I could have imagined what an more expensive machine would do for me. I roast with a heatgun and dogbowl but I'd gladly pay for a new Hottop if I were convinced that it could give me better roasts (or equal roasts with greater convenience).

Martin

If you got an Analog Hottop and PID controlled following Scott's lead I honestly believe it would meet your better or at least equal roast quality with greater convenience criteria.

But somehow it just seems right with the Universe you using a heatgun and dogbowl to roast for a two thousand dollar espresso machine!

oofnik, I think your argument falls into this classic fallacy: "Post Hoc, Ergo Prompter Hoc."

In other words, "After the fact, therefore because of it."

While one's barista capabilities (and hence espresso quality) may improve as one's equipment improves, it does not necesarily mean that the equipment caused the improvement.

My feeling is that one's investment of time and effort in espresso increases as one's financial investment increases. Almost by definition, once you've spent a boatload of money, you'll invest the time necessary to get proficient.
And once you do that, your skills will improve, as will the espresso. regardless of the equipment used.

Right now I use both a La Valentina and a Gaggia Classic (I live in two places). While I know I get a better shot out of La Val, I can also say that my shots out of the Gaggia are better than they have ever been. I know La Valentina is an exponentially better machine, but I've also made the investment to become a better home barista. It's a self-selection process as well, in that the more you love espresso, the more you are willing to invest -- in terms of both time and money -- to get the best possible result.

In my heart I believe that the best baristas can pull outstanding espresso out from behind a hot rock somewhere.

They don't need no stinkin equipmnt!

Ron_L wrote:While I agree wholeheartedly that the skills of the home barista are the limiting factor, my recent upgrade made it clear to me that the equipment can play a huge part as well. Once Alex arrived I set my Millennium aside and started using Alex. After a couple of weeks I fired up the Millennium to show it to a potential buyer. While the buyer was here we pulled several shots from the Millennium, and then he wanted to see my bottomless PF in action. It was already warmed up on Alex, so we pulled a shot on Alex. Both of us were amazed at the difference in the quality. I doubt that my skills had changes in the two weeks, and we used the same blend on both machines (Malabar Gold), so I can only attribute the difference to the machine (I'm sure that the bottomless PF had a little to do with it, but I doubt it would be that much).

I noted the same thing when I upgraded from my Silvia to the Alex. I pull better shots with Alex than with the Silvia. Better meaning richness and flavor in the cup and a more marked difference in flavor between beans than with Silvia.

At first, since I had upgraded my grinder from an MDF to a Super Jolly at the same time, I wasn't sure where the difference was coming from. But after trying the same bean and roast on both machines, ground on the SJ, it was obvious to me that Alex was better, although I was getting better shots from Silvia too, just not as good.

An oddity that I noticed was that while the espresso shots were much better with Alex, Cafe Cremas are slightly better with Silvia. When I coarsen the grind for Cafe Cremas, I get so much crema that it is hard to control and I end up with a stronger Cafe Crema.

old442 wrote:I think this hit the nail on the head. I'm a newbie, bought my wife a Silvia and Rocky for Xmas (SHE hasn't used them yet). Already I keep second guessing whether I should have spent more upfront. I've been thinking of a PID which bumps the price of Silvia to $700 and for a bit more there are some nice machines. Of course, I really would have liked to spend about $1500 on a machine so the difference really is larger...

Anyway, the main reason that I was second guessing myself, as well as wanting a PID, is to help remove operator induced variables. Coming from a production management and process engineering background I know all too well that operator (barista) error is responsible for most scrap (sink shots). An experienced operator (barista) has the knowledge base to accurately make adjustments on the fly which are beyond the capabilities of someone in training. By removing some of the variables upfront, the newbie can focus on a more finite set of variables. Once these have been reasonably mastered, then adjustments can be made to the parameters that the machine tightly controlled to experience more of the art and finesse the god shot.

Upgrade fever nagged me into upgrading from a Silvia/Rocky setup in under a year to a Vetrano/Macap M4 stepless. Best move I ever made but I really thought the Silvia would last me longer. Now I'm pining for a lever....

The Vetrano shots are consistently better than the average Silvia shots for sure. The best Silvia shots, IMHO, were better. Different machines, I think. E61 group vs. non E61 group. The Vetrano's set at 9bar, 1.2 bar in the boiler. I have no idea where the Silvia was at. The Macap can be adjusted for the second and the grind is better than the Rocky's I find. I don't disagree that a machine's potential isn't a factor but it's not as much of a factor as the other critical variables of roast, grind and hand.

I'll add my two cents worth in here as well. I've owned a Gaggia for ten years and upgraded to a La Spaziale VII recently. Big positive change in my espresso output here. But we're comparing a ten year old machine at $200 or less then to a $1800 machine just out of the block.

The point I wanted to make was I wanted a machine that could do two things: knock out an acceptable espresso in the mornings when I head to work without thinking about it too much - to Dan's point of "forgiveness factor". I also wanted a machine that I could really push the envelop on when I had the time to properly weigh, tamp, grind and tune. I think you get closer to having both of these in the higher cost machines.

Cheers

Ian