Steaming and brewing at same time with HX espresso machine

by **mthedude** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:29 am

Hello all, I am preparing to purchase a HX machine soon so I have been doing quite a bit of research.

In all of my reading I've stumbled across some advice saying that you really shouldn't steam & brew simultaneously...some suggest not to do this in a HX machine under a 5L boiler (1st Line Equip...http://www.1st-line.com/machines/...nte_tank_lever.htm)
and even on the Cliffs Notes of the HB Espresso 101 (from HB http://www.home-barista.com/expobar-brewtus-review.html) and then I recall an article or a blurb somewhere where someone made the magic number to avoid steaming/brewing with a boiler under 3L...though I can't find this article or forum post for the life of me.

So basically I've been hearing that you can in fact steam/brew simultaneously, with some users reporting only a 1 degree drop in brew temp as verified by a portafilter mounted thermometer in a machine with a boiler under 3L. While I agree to get more consistent temps you should probably steam them brew or vice versa depending on your mood, but in discussions lately I'm wondering if there is any definitive evidence showing that steaming/brewing simultaneously with a home HX machine does in fact prove to drop brew temps more than 1 degree or if it's just hearsay?

by **sweaner** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:36 am

I have no trouble brewing and steaming simultaneously. Admittedly, I don't do multiple drinks in a row, but I doubt I would have much trouble with a few in a row

by HB on Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:01 pm

mthedude wrote:In all of my reading I've stumbled across some advice saying that you really shouldn't steam & brew simultaneously... even on the Cliffs Notes of the HB Espresso 101

For reference, Abe wrote "A single boiler with a heat exchanger: This variety allows for brewing and steaming in immediate succession but in some cases not at the same time, as a drop in steam pressure in the boiler during steaming can affect brew temperature. The boiler has to be very large to allow both to be done effectively." My comments to follow.

...is any definitive evidence showing that steaming/brewing simultaneously with a home HX machine does in fact prove to drop brew temps more than 1 degree or if it's just hearsay?

I measured years ago and concluded it was not worth worrying about, but I welcome updated measurements, if someone is so motivated. If you have a fast grinder (< 10 seconds for a double) and are quick behind the portafilter, you can outrun an HX espresso machine. As I recall, some require ~90 seconds between shots for full recovery, though the difference is difficult to measure until the third pull and beyond.

by **cannonfodder** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:08 pm

Depends on the machine, and by that I mean the configuration of the brew controls to the steam controls. Most machines use a screw to open and close the steam valve. That usually takes two hands, one to hold the pitcher the other to work the control. As long as I am not reaching across the group to get to the controls, I have never had an issue. I usually start the shot, then start steaming. Depending on the machine, you may get your milk steamed before the shot even finishes. It takes me around 15 seconds to steam 4 ounces of milk. So I get everything ready, start the shot, start steaming, finish steaming then stop the shot.

by **malachi** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:41 pm

Honestly, it's not worth worrying about.
You can steam the milk first, build and pull the shot and pour the drink with literally no degradation in experience of the resulting drink. (just DO NOT pull the shot first and then steam the milk)

by **Beezer** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:51 pm

You can steam the milk first, build and pull the shot and pour the drink with literally no degradation in experience of the resulting drink.

Don't you risk losing some of the quality of the microfoam by letting it sit? I can see how it would be no big deal with a big double boiler or HX machine in a cafe because you don't have to worry about long flushes, but with most home prosumer HX machines, you have to flush for a fairly long time. Trying to grind, tamp, flush, wait for the machine to recover, then lock and pull your shot could result in the milk sitting and getting thick and cold. Frankly, it's just a lot simpler for me to pull the shot first and then steam the milk.

Lately, though, I have been trying to steam and pull the shot at the same time. It works OK on my Anita, but it's a bit difficult to keep track of the shot and steam simultaneously. It doesn't help that my steam wand is on the left side and the spout and brew lever are on the right. I think I need three hands, four eyes and two brains to watch everything and operate all the controls at the same time. Perhaps the perfect barista is an otcopus.

by **TimEggers** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:15 pm

All the more reason to crank the boiler up (I run my Anita at 1.4-bar) makes for fool proof microfoam (stock tip) and allows for the much faster flush-and-go shot pulling. Sure I'm flushing more before that first shot of the day but frankly who cares?

:twisted:

by **RapidCoffee** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:28 pm

IIRC, the volume of a typical prosumer espresso machine heat exchanger is roughly 100ml. That means the brew water for anything up to a triple shot is already sitting in the HX, heated approximately to brew temp when you begin the pour. Steaming while pulling the shot will drop the boiler pressure, but (especially if the HX is submerged in water), it seems unlikely that this will have a big impact on brew water temp. If it does drop the temp by a degree or two, you can easily compensate with a slightly shorter flush and/or longer delay before starting the pour.

I often steam and brew simultaneously on my Vetrano. The only downside is the need for a bit more coordination... :roll:

by **Randy G.** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:34 pm

malachi wrote:(just DO NOT pull the shot first and then steam the milk)

In my experience it is quite the opposite. You are going to pour 4 ounces of stretched milk into two ounces of espresso for a traditional cappuccino, and maybe even a bit more. With a HX machine it takes what... about 15 to 25 seconds at the most to stretch the milk? That is particularly true if you have the milk in the pitcher waiting before you begin the pull. The espresso will lose very little if anything at all in the time it sits waiting for the milk. What it does lose will be indiscernible to all except those with the most talented and developed of palates, and those folks would be more likely to desire a straight espresso. On the other hand, it takes a minute or two to prepare and pull a shot of espresso (depending on your chosen procedure). In that amount of time the milk will lose a good amount of its microfoam and texture, increasing the amount of stiff foam and liquid milk.

Some tips include having the cappuccino cups pre-warmed and to pull the espresso directly into the cappuccino cup so that pouring it from one vessel to another is not necessary. This will maintain the crema to the greatest extent possible.

I often pull two doubles and steam enough milk for two cappuccini during the second extraction without difficulty with the VBM DS.

In this same area (sort of) but not worth a new thread, have you seen the McDonalds coffee commercials lately? They show a short shot of about two or maybe three seconds if that of some stretched milk, looking down into a large-ish steaming pitcher, and they are spooning a bit of very stiff foam off the top to demonstrate its "quality." Ahh, the ignorant masses.

by **malachi** on Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:39 pm

I make a capp for my GF every morning and have done so for years.
For the last year, I've been working on an HX machine.
I steam the milk first and pull the shot second.
I lose no microfoam, no texture and the milk doesn't separate.

I don't know if this whole weirdness is myth or the result of people not knowing how to steam milk.
But seriously...

Milk can wait for espresso.
Espresso cannot wait for milk.

We're a bunch of people who are spending thousands of extra dollars on our equipment to try and improve our drinks by nearly unmeasurable amounts. We talk about measuring doses on digital gram scales and spend hundreds of hours diagnosing our extractions. But we're willing to let espresso sit in a cup and justify this by saying "oh... no-one can taste the difference."

Seriously.


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