I was about to purchase an Alexia (PID) as I only need/want a quality shot maker (and from what I can gather the Alexia is a good one ). As I won't be making milk drinks I decided that a HX or Double Boiler wasn't needed.
Now however I have come across a suggestion that shots made on a HX may be better tasting (all things being equal) than a single or double boiler machine due to the likelihood that non-HX brew water has been heated (and possibly boiled) multiple times prior to pulling a shot as opposed to the HX machine which uses fresh water that has been flash boiled just prior to the shot.

This sounds logical to me but I thought I would pose the question to hear what more experienced home baristas think. (this is a $500 question )

Cheers, Ted.

addendum: the Alexia's boiler sounds pretty small to me at .75 or .8 liter, - not sure if that is indeed considered "small" so maybe the likelihood of "stale water" (due to quicker boiler fill cycles) would be less of a concern compared to a much larger 1.5 liter type double boiler??

Water doesn't go stale.

Water can pick up metals in brass boilers to the point where it affects the taste. In steam boilers, this is irrelevant, but it could be a factor in brew boilers. It might be worth checking with a TDS meter, but the easiest technique is just to run some water through the group, put it in a cup, and let it cool. Then take two cups of the water you are putting in. If you can't pick the boiler derived cup out, you can stop worrying about it (at least until you upgrade to a double boiler with a stainless steel brew boiler, at which point you can say how serious an issue stale water is).

Hmmm, I thought it was a given that water that has already been boiled tastes different than water that hasn't been boiled. This is why Grandmas the world over dump the water out of their kettles and refill when making their next cuppa.

Ted,

I've owned a PID'd Alexia and now have a Vetrano. I can tell you that both will produce one hell of a shot, with the process being a little easier on the Alexia. If you only need to steam milk on occasion you'd be extremely hard pressed to find a better machine than a PID'd Alexia for anywhere near its price. If you haven't already, you may want to read the extensive review here on HB. http://www.home-barista.com/quickmill-alexia-review.html

Stale water is a very moot point for a few reasons. First, the Alexia's boiler is only .75 liters (25 ounces), so it has very little water contained within. Your leftover water will not be in the boiler for long considering you need to pull a warming shot to get the brew head up to temp in order to achieve the flat temp profile you are most likely looking for. After the boiler rebounds, you'll pull your shot. In total you are looking at about 5 ounces (~3.5oz flush, 1.5oz shot), so 5 shots and you have used all the water in the boiler. Second, you'll probably end up drinking far more espresso than you do currently, so 5 shots spaced out throughout a day means fresh water daily.

I think the "stale" re-boiled water thing only applies to tea, as tea needs dissolved oxygen in the water to brew properly. AFAIK, I don't think that applies to coffee, unless someone can correct me?

bigredted wrote:Now however I have come across a suggestion that shots made on a HX may be better tasting (all things being equal) than a single or double boiler machine due to the likelihood that non-HX brew water has been heated (and possibly boiled) multiple times prior to pulling a shot as opposed to the HX machine which uses fresh water that has been flash boiled just prior to the shot.

Mark reported in Can water go stale? that the plastic reservoir imparted a bad taste, but boiled water tasted like boiled water, whether it had idled in the espresso machine's boiler for minutes or hours. As a matter of practice, I dump/refill the reservoir once a day and flush the boiler if the machine is not getting enough action for natural water freshness turnover.

Thank you for your feedback guys, I do appreciate it.

After a further comparisons I find for an additional $160.00 I can get the Anita (PID). The Anita certainly appears to be a more substantial machine to say the least, (HX vs. single boiler and some components are heavier, more commercial quality than found in the Alexia I do believe).

If I thought that the Anita could not produce as good a shot (all things being equal) as the Alexia I would go with the Alexia as I am more concerned with the espresso shot than milk based drinks. It doesn't matter to me how the best shot is attained, HX or single boiler.

For the extra $160 the Anita certainly appears to be the no-brainer.

Cheers, Ted.

P.S.
As an aside I happened across a picture of the new Brasilia Mini Classic, ($1699.00 @ WLL) a real beauty IMHO.

* Other machines I have considered: Expobar Office Leva (approx. $1250), the Bricoletta line (approx. $1250?) and the Vibe. Domobar Jr. HX (approx. $15-1600) which seems too new to have a track record.

bigredted wrote:If I thought that the Anita could not produce as good a shot (all things being equal) as the Alexia I would go with the Alexia as I am more concerned with the espresso shot than milk based drinks.

The Alexia and Anita are made by the same manufacturer. If there are minor differences in components, it would not sway me one way or another. If you're an espresso-only drinker, the Alexia with PID is an ideal fit. Anita is also a fine choice, but you have the extra step of cooling flushes for temperature management. Obviously that doesn't bother me since my go-to espresso machine, the Elektra Semiautomatica, is a "dragon" HX, but the flush routine grates on the nerves of some people.

bigredted wrote:For the extra $160 the Anita certainly appears to be the no-brainer.

Hmm-m, for an espresso-only drinker, the Alexia is usually cited as the "no-brainer" versus an HX espresso machine. You can read the gory details in the Quickmill Alexia review and the Quickmill Andreja Premium review (internally identical to the Anita).

Hi Dan, Indeed it was the Alexia review that initially convinced me that it was the machine for me. (It received a 9 on espresso shot quality !).

Perhaps it is the "no brainer". I just 'rationalized' that for the extra $160 (7-8% price increase) the Anita was a better buy due to:
1. a larger boiler (which may or may not have a bearing on anything),
2. a hot water wand,
3. a no-waiting steam supply,
4. extra gauge,
5. a component or two which is better quality then that found in the Alexia, (can't remember what they are now, I think it might have been OPV? and possibly another component)
6. and it might be argued that the Anita is a better looking machine.

I have also read a few posts from H-B seniors pooh poohing the notion that a HX machine is more difficult than a SB or DB for pulling consistent shots. (ie: "while the HX needed flushing to bring down the group heat, the DB needed flushing to bring up the group heat" = thereby a wash. ??)

It also occurred to me that as the Anita will have the PID this may go a long way towards nullify the possible temp. stability advantage enjoyed by a SB/DB. (I do not however know if this is a correct assumption.)

While I know I emphasized that I wasn't interested in milk drinks it would be unwise for me to say I won't have a change of heart at some time in the future, - it also occurred to me that the Anita might hold it resale value a bit more than the Alexia due to its flexibility for non straight shot drinks which is important to so many.

So once again, with all things being equal, if I thought the Anita could produce the same quality shot it would seem to me the additional $160.00 was comparatively buying much more machine for the money.

But I could be wrong, it happened once before in 1968.
Cheers, Ted.

bigredted wrote:It also occurred to me that as the Anita will have the PID this may go a long way towards nullify the possible temp. stability advantage enjoyed by a SB/DB. (I do not however know if this is a correct assumption.)

The question of PID'd HX espresso machines comes up regularly. Synopsis: Advocates note that if run at a low boiler pressure, the need for flushing is greatly reduced and you can raise the temperature quickly for steaming as needed. Unlike a pressurestat, a PID/SSR combo has no moving parts. For more background info, try one of the forum search tips to find prior discussions.