Endo wrote:When was the last time you ran a Silvia? ... Let's kill this Silvia myth once and for all. A see a lot of beginners buying DBs based on this advice and then end up both disappointed AND poor.

It's been awhile, but you can read about it here. As for whether the "Silvia myth" is true or not, readers can search the Internet and decide for themselves. Jeff Sawdy is a long-time Rancilio Silvia owner and jotted down his impressions as part of the conclusion to the Buyer's Guide to the Quickmill Alexia:

Jeff Sawdy wrote:In my experience, the Alexia delivers great coffee more consistently and with less effort than the Rancilio Silvia. It may be hard to justify $300, especially for a budding enthusiast, but let's just say I have not shed a tear for Silvia during the course of this review and I don't relish the thought of going back to "her".

As most would conclude from reading my posts, I am not a proponent of buying a double boiler simply to avoid the extra steps of brew temperature management. While it does require extra effort to temperature surf a single boiler or flush an HX espresso machine, it's simple compared to taste flaw diagnosis, which ironically gets far less discussion.

I concur with the viewpoint that the barista and the coffee are the 2 most important contributors to better coffee. I currently run 3 different machines at any one time, a La Cimbali Jr -hx, a La Cimbali M20 lever-boiler direct and an Olympia Maximatic-thermal block - all of these machines have the capability to make amazing coffee and most of the time do. When I'm not paying attention I have been known to make some horrid swill as well. The funny thing is now that I've got the temp swing sorted out with the M20 (boiler direct) it pulls the most consistently yummy shots followed by the Maximatic. The Cimbali Jr is the toughest to work with yet when the shots are spot on it produces a shot with more definition and clarity than the other machines. All in all each machine produces great espresso and each machine has a different technology behind it. My machines are 30, 18 and 3 years old - the 30 year old M20 works just fine with all these modern type coffees and contemporary dosing strategies.
-Ian

HB wrote:I agree about grinders, but disagree about the importance of the practical value of an espresso machine's "forgiveness factor". For example, the wildly popular Rancilio Silvia for newbies is one of the most difficult espresso machines to use. If the grind, distribution, and dosage aren't perfect, the quality of the cup suffers. The stock thermostat allows the brew temperature to wander over too wide a range; owners have to adopt "temperature surfing" or add a PID controller at considerable expense.

In other words, I think it's worth obsessing over the espresso ensemble's overall ease of use.

Hi Dan,

I don't consider the Silvia to be an "acceptable" machine in the context of my post. Earlier in this thread and in other threads I've set the low bar for that as being a low end HX machine, preferably E61 in design.

ken

AndyS wrote:Ken, please refresh my memory, but in order to get this good thermal reproducibility, haven't you had to turn the boiler temp down so far that the steaming performance is unsatisfactory?

Hi Andy,

Actually, the steaming performance is much better with my current setup. This is because the Cimbali Juniors, in their stock configuration, produce too much steam through their steam tip design to produce good microfoam, other than perhaps by a very skilled barista (which for the purposes of this discussion does not include me).

With the boiler of my rotary machine set at around 230.5F (which gives me 198F degree shots), I get terrific microfoam even with my klutzy technique. I doubt I could efficiently produce enough frothed milk to make 10 lattes in 20 minutes with my equipment used in this way, but since that is a situation that never presents itself in my house, I don't care. I can produce enough milk to make several normally proportioned cappucinos as rapidly as I can produce the accompanying shots, and that is good enough for me.

Which brings me back to the point of my post; I'm a home barista and even though I use commercial equipment in my home, the (output) needs of a home user are so far below what is needed in a cafe, that the limitations of such equipment alluded to in this thread are hardly relevant.

ken

gscace wrote:It depends on what you mean by prosumer. If prosumer means any 1-group, then the current 1-group offerings by LM and Synesso would be fine, and especially the GS3. If prosumer means that the form factor has to fit under standard overhanging counter height, then there's not a whole lot. The GS3 is an obvious choice. I do like the Dalla Corte group and boiler, although i think it's idiotic that there should be niggling problems with them. I own a La Spaz S1, which I think is ok and use at my office. Others can talk about more knowledgeably about their Elektras, although I've been pretty unimpressed with what I've seen and tasted at trade shows.

Really the scene is pretty bleak. The most transparent gear is the best commercial stuff shoehorned into the home environment. In my view it's a pretty lazy industry when a few enthusiasts from home like Andy and Jepy can come up with innovations that have significant impact on the industry. What's up with that?

Now I realize my list is sort of lop-sided, and someone's gonna feel bad, but you asked...

Hey, glad to get an honest opinion. But no, I do not consider 1-group to be a synonym for prosumer. Your typical H-Ber, who would be (correctly) regarded as an off-the-deep-end coffee fanatic by 99.9% of the caffeine consumers on the planet, cannot afford machines such as the LM GS3, Synesso, Speedster, and Aurelia*. These offerings cost several times as much as prosumer double boilers like the Brewtus, S1, VBM DD, Izzo Duetto, or even the pricier DC Mini. So I'd be much more interested in hearing your short list of machines that clock in at, say, under $3K (HX as well as DB, if any).

As far as innovations coming from home enthusiasts: why not? As you pointed out, espresso machine manufacturers have not exactly been pushing the technology envelope.

* I know it's a 2-group, but you recommended it for home use.

Out of curiosity... how many of you are NOT arguing that your own personal machine type (DB, HX) is superior?

malachi wrote:Out of curiosity... how many of you are NOT arguing that your own personal machine type (DB, HX) is superior?

I'm not arguing, Chris. I think both types of machines are quite capable of producing excellent shots . . .

malachi wrote:Out of curiosity... how many of you are NOT arguing that your own personal machine type (DB, HX) is superior?

Good point, Chris!

For the record, even though I own an HX espresso machine, the boiler design wasn't an important part of my buying decision. As I alluded to earlier in my reply to Ken, the "forgiveness factor" is more important to me than reproducing brew temperatures within a tiny range. But that's hard to quantify, so armchair engineer types prefer to argue about something they can measure precisely.

malachi wrote:Out of curiosity... how many of you are NOT arguing that your own personal machine type (DB, HX) is superior?

I'm not. I like my Elektra for its clarity, I like well set up E61s for their body, I like LMs (when someone else is making the shots) for being supremely "workable" on espresso style. In terms of enjoying the espresso, I don't give a flying f*** how they do it; but I'm consumed with curiosity on what makes some machines great and others also-rans.

gscace wrote:Examples of such cobbling is the use of thermosyphon groups in double boiler machines. There really is no good reason for this. The thermosyphon group works properly when there is a large temperature difference between the boiler and the group. The double boiler idea is that the brew water should be very close to brewing temperature. What gives here, other than the groups look cool and they are widely available.

Out of curiosity: if you would set out to "ambush" Izzo Alex Duetto (with steam boiler on), what would be the sequence that you'd try first? Duetto is a thermosyphon DB, but the design of the thermosyphon loop is better than in some other E61 DB's AFAIK. I have been playing around with my Duetto now and measuring thermal stability in different conditions would be one interesting thing to do.