Hello everyone,

First time poster here and looking forward to feedback on this.

I recently purchased a Brewtus-IV (as in awaiting it's arrival). I have seen quit a lot about descaling these units (actually any boiler system).

When I asked about "dezcal" or any other descale products I was told in no uncertain terms not to do so. It was suggested to use distilled water (was even suggested which one to use, as it does still have trace amounts of minerals in it). An use the included ion exchange water softener filter.

Reason given. Will destroy coatings in tank, rot seal and such. I was told it is much better to pull tank apart after several years and manually clean out scale. I have seen built up lime scale and that is not a pretty sight.

So anyone with first hand experience with either method? Negative or positive?

Thanks

John

Judge,

Scale = Cancer on espresso machines.

I understand that resellers of HX and double boiler espresso machines do not recommend descaling due to liability issues.

I had a Brewtus III for 2 years and I successfully descaled ( brew and steam boiler) it every year with Dezcal.
Keep in mind that I refill Culligan gallon containers at Kroger and the water is not only cheap around 30cents /g but it comes very soft at around 5 or 6 ppm, compared to almost 300ppm ( faucet).

Now I have and Alex Duetto II and I just performed its first descaling

You can look for Alex Duetto descaling on the web and there is a Wiki link with instructions for the steam and brew boilers. The steam boiler descaling is very easy and the draining procedure is easy as well. For the brew boiler I would not call it complex, however, it requires more time since you are not suppose to engage the pump for more than 20 seconds and you need to get the descaling solution out. It takes about 2 or 3 reservoirs full of clean water to flush it and you are good to go. No weird flavor, smells, nada.

I have the feeling that many unsuccessful descaling procedures have been due to users experimenting with high concentrations of citric acid.

Good luck

I've used a 50/50 mixture of distilled water, with regular tap water, in my Mini II from day one. After 2 years of ownership I descaled it last month and opened up the brew boiler, which turned out to be in pristine condition. My steam boiler is sealed but I did remove one of the fittings, on the top, and took a peek inside with a flashlight but couldn't see any scale what-so-ever.

Chris Coffee suggested that mixture and told me to never to descale it. However, the fine folks at the Vivaldi Cafe have done this and have detailed explanations of exactly how to do it.

FYI, as a general rule of thumb, if you use only straight distilled water your espresso will taste like $#@&.

2nd FYI, you should really get a water hardness test kit, or even the strips that Chris Coffee sells will work, to determine the hardness of your tap water and then the hardness of a mixture of tap/distilled. The key here is that you want to taste the mixture and use the least amount of distilled water you can, while still keeping the hardness within the recommended range.

This webpage http://big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html is considered by most to be the authoritative guide to espresso water hardness.

mariowar wrote:Judge,

Scale = Cancer on espresso machines.

I understand that resellers of HX and double boiler espresso machines do not recommend descaling due to liability issues.

I had a Brewtus III for 2 years and I successfully descaled ( brew and steam boiler) it every year with Dezcal.
Keep in mind that I refill Culligan gallon containers at Kroger and the water is not only cheap around 30cents /g but it comes very soft at around 5 or 6 ppm, compared to almost 300ppm ( faucet).

Now I have and Alex Duetto II and I just performed its first descaling

I have the feeling that many unsuccessful descaling procedures have been due to users experimenting with high concentrations of citric acid.

Good luck

Thanks, I will look at Wiki links for the Duetto for the information.

rbh1515 wrote:Here is what I use in my GS3. I use RO water and add a product from Cirqua:
http://shop.chinamist.com/products/Wate...irqua.html
This is great water for espresso, and it should not cause any scale.
Rob

Thank you for the link, could solve the taste issue using distilled water.

Dodger1 wrote:I've used a 50/50 mixture of distilled water, with regular tap water, in my Mini II from day one. After 2 years of ownership I descaled it last month and opened up the brew boiler, which turned out to be in pristine condition. My steam boiler is sealed but I did remove one of the fittings, on the top, and took a peek inside with a flashlight but couldn't see any scale what-so-ever.

Chris Coffee suggested that mixture and told me to never to descale it. However, the fine folks at the Vivaldi Cafe have done this and have detailed explanations of exactly how to do it.

FYI, as a general rule of thumb, if you use only straight distilled water your espresso will taste like $#@&.

2nd FYI, you should really get a water hardness test kit, or even the strips that Chris Coffee sells will work, to determine the hardness of your tap water and then the hardness of a mixture of tap/distilled. The key here is that you want to taste the mixture and use the least amount of distilled water you can, while still keeping the hardness within the recommended range.

This webpage http://big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html is considered by most to be the authoritative guide to espresso water hardness.

Thank you for this information, I do understand no minerals does taste "YUCK"! It is of note that they did say some minerals in that distilled water he suggested. Testing that water is a great idea and I will do so (I actually have marine aquariums). As for my tap water, I do not live in Montreal but in a small town just outside of it (just easier to give the closest large city). We have well water, and it actually rots the copper pipes, kills our hot water tank withing 5 years and sometimes grey/brown spots on the wash. So mixing any tap water, well I think you get the drift, and why this is such an important topic for me. I have a Bunn VP-17 pour over at home, I run vinegar through it once a year, an intend to pull the tank soon. The spray head actually gets clogged with deposits from the water. I will start using non tap water in that unit as well. I will take the time to read that water/mineral content link, a little over my head at the moment. But still very good information. Thanks.

Thank you all for very good information. I will take the time to digest it all an come up with a good game plan to protect my investment.
I am so looking forward to not having to stop at my local Starbucks (no disrespect meant) on the way to work.

erics wrote:You were given some incomplete and/or incorrect information from the person you talked to about water quality and machine maintenance. It is possible they recommended the use of bottled water and that would be a very reasonable alternative depending on the quality of your existing tap water. A good bottled water to use is Volvic as it has only one source and is bottled there.

Surprisingly he did indeed state to use distilled water, but a specific one that he says has some minerals in it. An I will be looking into alternative bottled waters, as I have stated my tap water is far to hard.

erics wrote:As previously recommended, Jim Schulman's "Insanely Long Water FAQ" is available from the Reference section of this site - http://www.home-barista.com/resources.html .

I will be slogging through that information, thanks.

erics wrote:Very reasonable standards for coffee brewing (and espresso) water are here: http://www.scaa.org/PDF/ST%20-%20WATER%20STANDARD%20V.21NOV2009A.pdf

Thanks for the link

erics wrote:Running titration tests for water samples can be a PITA but there exists high quality test strips from a reputable manufacturer here: http://www.mcmaster.com/#water-test-strips/=cw3pzy%20.%20If%20the%20link%20messes%20up,%20it%20is%20McMaster-Carr%20p/n%2011235T47 .

I really not sure if I want to take it that far, just want a reasonable water, that will not clog up the unit, and still give an excellent tasting coffee.

erics wrote:Then, change your route and stop here: http://www.cafemyriade.com/ . It is one of, if not the best cafes in Montreal. One of the owners wrote these: http://www.professionalbaristashandbook.com/ - perhaps a nice addition to your library.

Sadly on the wrong side of town for me, but I will stop by and have shot's there. Will be a great place to compare my endeavors to those of experts. I have noticed that book I wonder how others like it? Thanks for this link.

spiffdude wrote:+1

You might also want to check out Pikolo, Flocon and Cafe St-Henri. All excellent 3rd wave places. I agree with Eric that Myriad is on top.

Back on topic. If you are unsure of how much scale might have accumulated down the road, open up the mushroom and that will give you some indication. Search for "checking for scale on E61 group" or something similar.

Thank you for the recommendation of shops to stop at, I will indeed do so. I will also search for your recommendation of "scale on E61"

Great feedback, Thank you.

John

I am not a water expert, but here and here is what I did to treat my home water for my plumbed machine. If you are not plumbing yours you can still do much the same using the output from the system to a sink-top tap as the source to fill the reservoir.

A good and affordable way to check the hardness of your water is to use the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Carbonate Test Kit like this one here. This tests for the scale producing elements in the water.