No doubt the GS/3 excels at temperature repeatability shot to shot, day to day. It's unlikely any e61 is in the same league. Anyone using an e61 without Eric's adapter is brewing blind working much harder than necessary.


...split from Sink that First Shot by moderator...

cafeIKE wrote:No doubt the GS/3 excels at temperature repeatability shot to shot, day to day. It's unlikely any e61 is in the same league.

Duetto II is a PID double boiler machine (with an E61 group)

Nik wrote:I won't apologize for being an espresso novice but I will share with you what I have experienced in a little over two months.

After only 2 months could it be possible that your shots are improving independent of the machine?
(That is, maybe technique is getting more consistent)


Also, color and smell changes could indicate a different temperature or different pump pressure limit (or both)

Thanks for the note Jon!

JonR10 wrote:Duetto II is a PID double boiler machine (with an E61 group)

This is true but I think that I read that the LM circulates water around the head and maintains better temperature control. I got in the habit of running some water through the head on the Duetto prior to inserting the PF and I still do it with the LM although I doubt that it is necessary.

After only 2 months could it be possible that your shots are improving independent of the machine?
(That is, maybe technique is getting more consistent)

I learned real quick that changing coffee brands was not good for learning to get the pulls right. When I settled on Redline it became very predictable and was capable of locking onto the right grind and tamping.

Also, color and smell changes could indicate a different temperature or different pump pressure limit (or both)

Still struggling with the right temperature. Right now I am using 198F for the Redline and it seems to have the best flavor. It will take some time to get it nailed.

Bob

JonR10 wrote:Duetto II is a PID double boiler machine (with an E61 group)

As long as the ambient conditions, not temperature remain constant, the PID does an admirable job of controlling the group. A very slight draft across the group will change the group idle temperature by several degrees. It's possible to heat the group with a heat gun and as long as the heat input does not exceed the heat loss in the rest of the system, boiler temperature will maintain. Thermally, an e61 group is a million miles away from the PID control point. I imagine the GS/3 runs rings around ANY e61 in a wide range of ambient conditions.

cafeIKE wrote:I imagine the GS/3 runs rings around ANY e61 in a wide range of ambient conditions.

Your previous statement was "It's unlikely any e61 is in the same league." (with the saturated group for temp stability) and I pointed out that this statement missed the mark WRT the Duetto. I think there is no question that the duetto is in the same league for repeatability "shot to shot, day to day".

Now you want to measure while blowing a fan or heat gun on the group and claim that causes a "wide temp swing" in the brewing chamber? Please. Who runs a fan or heat gun on their espresso machine standing there whilst pulling a shot in the morning?

The saturated group surely has an advantage for temp stability and my initial impressions lead me to believe the texture and flavor profile for the extraction is a bit different from the E61, but to say a PID dual boiler E61 is "not in the same league" with a saturated group for shot-to-shot temp stability is, well, poppycock.

JonR10 wrote:Now you want to measure while blowing a fan or heat gun on the group and claim that causes a "wide temp swing" in the brewing chamber? Please. Who runs a fan or heat gun on their espresso machine standing there whilst pulling a shot in the morning?

This was simply an extreme case to illustrate that the display on the PID does not correlate to group temperature. Anyone pulling shots on an e61 PID in conditions that vary widely and relying solely on the PID display is laboring under an illusion.

JonR10 wrote:Really now, and just how wide of a spread to you expect to see for ambient conditions in your kitchen? And do you have any evidence or experimentation to support your "several degrees" claim? I might buy "a degree or two" at the very most (assuming a small flush after an idle period), but other than that...well let's just say I'm skeptical.

Over the course of a summer morning the temperature in kitchen could rise by 15°F. If we leave the windows ajar, and there is the faintest breeze, < 2kn outside, from the southwest, the group will be at least 2°F cooler than with the windows closed. In the fall where temperatures can vary 50°F in the course of day, the room temperature profile could be 60°F upon rising, increasing to 67°F when the missus arises and turns on the furnace, further increasing to 78°F when the air con finally kicks in. The only 'evidence' I have is the 0.1°F thermometer in Eric's adapter. I've never bothered to log it as it's meaningless anywhere or anytime else.

JonR10 wrote:The saturated group surely has an advantage for temp stability and my intial impressions lead me to believe the texture and flavor profile for the extraction is a bit different from the E61, but to say a PID dual boiler E61 is "not in the same league" with a saturated group for shot-to-shot temp stability is, well, poppycock.

Tell you what, I'll put up my Vibiemme Double Domo against your GS/3. We'll set them side by side in my kitchen on a day with a 50°F swing and Scace the daylights out of them. Winner takes both machines.

cafeIKE wrote:Tell you what, I'll put up my Vibiemme Double Domo against your GS/3. We'll set them side by side in my kitchen on a day with a 50°F swing and Scace the daylights out of them. Winner takes both machines.

Your cited case is extreme, and if you choose to live in an environment that swings 50°F in a day then I suppose that's your perogative.

Tell you what, bring YOUR machine to MY kitchen where we have insulation in the walls and a properly-functioning A/C system and we can run the same experiment. (Our ambient temp stays within a small few degrees on any given day).


I'll maintain that the biggest difference (either case) would most probably be in how much you need to flush, and if you need to adjust your digital temp setting because you chose to freeze your tail off and/or sweat like a dog that day in your own kitchen.


EDIT: to define "freeze" for me...I'm a CA boy raised in the heart of Texas, anything under 60°F is uncomfortably cold to me, and when it drops below 50°F then I'd say "it's FREEZING out here!". The thought of having my kitchen see 60°F is simply ludicrous to me, but to each his own.

Not very

If you'd lived in England in an old stone house with open coal fires, 60°F in the morning is toasty.

Jon, WOWZAS!

You gotta come live in New England for a while. Youll learn a whole new meaning to the phrase, "Damn its Cold!"

If 50F is FREEZING, come on up here in February. There are days when, at NOON, its in single digits, with a wind chill bringing it below freezing. You can literally pour some water on the ground, and watch it frost over and start to harden up as it spreads out.

60F is a blessing to wake up too up here man!

Maybe THIS is why I have never understood people complaining about a steam boiler heating up their house

Couldn't be more right. . . To each their own.

Ah California!

Howard