HB wrote:my gut feeling is that the holy grail of absolute temperature repeatability is more of an engineering exercise or commercial interest than something Joe/Jane home barista needs to worry about. Assuming, of course, that their end goal is exceptional espresso versus bragging rights about owning the "baddest" hardware.

Very well said Dan. And it's also agreed that a minimal amount of futzing is all that's required of any prosumer PID/DB machine even under the most demanding home barista conditions

So - again it seems that it becomes a matter of how we want to define "league" and then just how important is the "league" of temp stability shot-to-shot.

When I got my own GS3 I did some unscientific comparisons using both machines side by side and found I was able to generate very similar cups with saturated vs. E61 HX. Sure, the flavor and texture profiles of the straight shots were slightly different but most folks I know would be hard-pressed to say which was "better" (it would come down to a matter of prefernce rather than absolute quality in the cup).

I didn't buy the GS3 primarily for flat-line temp stability or 0.1 °C repeatability, it was more for *bling factor*, and the ease of use, stronger steam, and ability to more easily experiment with different temperature settings for different coffees (and geeeeez - the steampower is lovely!).

Bottom line, it is more precise and consistent than the HX and I think there is an overall improvement in my cup as a result...but it was the coolness factor and the "Premier" status of the saturated group that sold me (I still would not have gone for it at the original sales price)

HB wrote:But like debates of the impact of temperature stability years ago on the cup, my gut feeling is that the holy grail of absolute temperature repeatability is more of an engineering exercise or commercial interest than something Joe/Jane home barista needs to worry about. Assuming, of course, that their end goal is exceptional espresso versus bragging rights about owning the "baddest" hardware.

+1

Talking about good coffee is so much harder, because it is a complex and subjective issue. So people tend to pick some engineering aspect to argue about.

cafeIKE wrote:I'm not tempted to buy a GS/3 either. I'd rather drop the do-re-mi on two Malkonig ES30 Varios, for the simple reason they are among the quietest grinders available. However, I'm not convinced they'd make better espresso than the MXK.

I agree that most of the time, producing decent shots, absolute temperature repeatability is so what. It's those times when the angels sing on an 8.8g / 198.5° shot and the frogs croak on 9.2 @ 197° or 200° that the repeatability Gorgon escapes.

When I can measure picoseconds and microvolts with mind-numbing repeatability on equipment that costs a miniscule fraction of a GS/3 and Malkonig, making espresso with literally medieval precision is frustrating to say the least.

Problem is that, you're dealing with temperature and pressure of water, not electricity or time (one quite stable and one completely stable). Water isn't uniform, in a blob of 100 degree water you can have as much as 1F temperature difference between different droplets of water. With time and electricity, you only have measurement errors to think about, and you only have to measure them, not control them. And what do you think is easier, controlling electricity with electricity or controlling temperature of water through feedback from a sensor with electricity? Time control is also just the same as measuring it.

Please don't compare apples in Oregon and sea bass in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.

Sebastian, from your post I'd say you've mastered the art of hyperbole, but you may not have developed the skill of recognizing it in others' writing.

Dude, my Duetto needs BIG flush-10-12oz to get temp down to within 1 degree of PID...in the evening i can't even get within 3 degree with the same size flush

I've never heard of anybody having to flush that much with a Duetto. Most aren't flushing more than an ounce or two from what I've heard. How are you measuring your temps and what offset do you have set on the PID? 10oz just seems crazy to me.

Indeed, in Temperature study of Alex Duetto, Jim Gallt indicates a 3 oz. flush at the beginning of a session and records pretty nice consistency at 2:00 exact shot intervals. Hardly a WBC test, but definitely nowhere in the 12 oz. flush range. Seems like you'd be putting the hurt on your brew boiler with a flush like that, unless it has a HX water feed.

mike01 wrote:I've never heard of anybody having to flush that much with a Duetto. Most aren't flushing more than an ounce or two from what I've heard. How are you measuring your temps and what offset do you have set on the PID? 10oz just seems crazy to me.

18 offset.....using scace and fluke.....my cooling flush temp needs to bottom around 178...water line feed...update this a.m. i only flushed 2 oz and was within 1 degree of PID...maybe this is an evening issue..maybe that GS3 is coming sooner than later...update...still an issue in the evening...3 degree higher than PID after 3 oz flush....i guess a downward temp adjustment in the evening will be necessary..

JonR10 wrote:I can handle the cold and the snow, it's beautiful for a short time (and then it's important to ME to go back HOME where it's warm). In Houston, we have snow about once a decade and that is about enough for me.

Hi Jon, I couldn't help thinking of you as I heard the weather report last night. Hope you guys are coping OK!

LOL - thanks for thinking of us!

It has been a WILD couple of days here in Houston. We're several years early for a snowfall (last one was in 2004), plus I think I heard we broke a record for the earliest recorded freeze. It's even wilder still that apparently New York is seeing balmy temperatures this week....

But we're coping just fine. Everyone was very excited to see the snowflakes and we even saw an accumulated blanket of snow for about 12 hours (it's gone now, outside temp is around 50°F)

I saw this on Shadowfax's facebook, it shows our weather yesterday



And there is another more serious ramification: our kitchen was chilly 68°F this morning!
(This is about 5°F cooler than normal).