There is an attendant consideration with plumbed-in machines compared to pourover, and I think it is worth mentioning as part of any decision process. I have a concern with plumbed-in, rotary machines, which is the potential leakage of the typically used John Guest type plumbing we use. I use this type of plumbing, and I have it in two installations. And, rightly or wrongly, it makes me a little nervous.

After a plumbing mishap this winter with a plastic refrigerator line (no John Guest involvement) that cost me a lot of time and money, I had a talk with my plumber (as he was in my house to work on the mess). He looked at my espresso hookup and told me that he will no longer install anything like this, nor will he do the under-sink RO systems that are popular. He says that this type of plumbing does not conform to building codes. Hence, when there are failures and people put in big water damage claims with insurance companies, the insurance companies come back on the installer if the installer was a licensed plumber. (He also told me that the braided, flexible riser tubes we all have that connect the water supplies to our sinks are not in conformance with national codes, as well as a couple of other moderately unsettling things).

I think that any cautious espresso enthusiast who is making a decision on rotary versus pourover should understand what my plumber expressed to me. Is the plastic plumbing for an espresso machine any worse that the garden hose connection to one's dishwasher, or the flexible riser tubes, or the plastic infested under-counter RO system, or the dreaded plastic ice-cube maker line on the frig? Definitely not. But it is yet another source of possible leakage, an N+1 situation, and if you have an expensive hardwood floor, as I do, it can be ruined before you know it by a dripping leak.

I have not had a problem with my John Guest installations, and I trust Chris Coffee to sell only materials that he knows from experience will work well for his customers. So I will continue to have my rotary machines. But I want to mitigate the risk wherever I can. Hence, I plan to check into upgrading my installation this summer. A fellow enthusiast told me that the plastic line that Chris carries is good for 230 p.s.i. This is much higher than my line pressure, and I won't make any changes here. I have also been told that Culligan carries fittings that are double O-ringed. I have not had a chance to look into this, but if I can get these fittings I will definitely replace what I have with them, as it seems like an easy and sensible upgrade. The other thing I have already done is to get some of the water alarms that have a mat-type water sensing element. I will put one of these in proximity to the plumbing and machine where I have a hardwood floor. These are the only simple and prudent things I know to do at this time, other than shut the water off when we leave the house overnight.

For what it is worth...

BillK

BillK wrote:He says that this type of plumbing does not conform to building codes. Hence, when there are failures and people put in big water damage claims with insurance companies, the insurance companies come back on the installer if the installer was a licensed plumber. (He also told me that the braided, flexible riser tubes we all have that connect the water supplies to our sinks are not in conformance with national codes, as well as a couple of other moderately unsettling things).

Really? The Watts brand and braided flexible tubes are sold at all big box home improvement stores around here. It's hard to imagine they would knowingly sell plumbing supplies that are not up to code. That said, I know that there has been changes in our city's code with regard to plumbing hookups for refrigerators, dishwashers, and washing machines. Years ago the solid rubber hoses similar to a cheap garden hose were acceptable; today they must be the braided reinforced types.

By the way, one of the best ways to reduce the chance of leaks is properly regulating the house's water pressure to ~50 PSI. The water pressure from the street is 110 PSI in our city; over the years, our pressure regulator failed. The giveaway was a "whoosh" when a faucet was first opened. That is, the pressure would slowly rise to street pressure because the seal on the regulator was leaking. A properly installed expansion tank for the water heater will also help prevent overpressurizing the house's plumbing.

BillK wrote:A fellow enthusiast told me that the plastic line that Chris carries is good for 230 p.s.i. This is much higher than my line pressure, and I won't make any changes here.

That's correct, Chris' Coffee only stocks the commercial grade John Guest, which is rated at 230 PSI @ 70F. The residential grade Watts brand sold at our local home improvement stores is rated at 120 PSI.

Yeah I agree the fittings that chris coffee sells and watts brand fittings are all excellent when it comes to durability. I just installed my new system which can be viewed under the post a pic of your home espresso setup and I decide to add some insurance by adding a leak detector which is attached at the upper left hand side of my setup. It has already helped once when I did not tighten a fitting to one of my filters enough and had a small leak appear about 3 days after install. The detector I installed came from fresh water systems and once it detects a leak it shuts the whole system down and also emits a beep to let you know something is wrong. If you are that concerned about a leak get yourself one of these and since they are battery operated you do not have to worry about it if the power goes out.

Somewhat on topic: The plastic regulator I got from Chris developed a crack near a fitting, but luckily I noticed the leak under the sink before any damage occurred. I'd recommend getting the brass version for roughly the same price.

We did have a big mess when somehow the brew lever on Elektra got activated at night while the machine timer was off. When it turned on at 6:00, it quickly filled the bucket Elektra was draining into and then began covering the kitchen with warm water. Luckily we had tile floor and cleanup wasn't too bad.

I, personally, do not very much believe in combination of plastic and metal (your house mains). I would recommend getting brass parts.

HB wrote:Really? The Watts brand and braided flexible tubes are sold at all big box home improvement stores around here. It's hard to imagine they would knowingly sell plumbing supplies that are not up to code. That said, I know that there has been changes in our city's code with regard to plumbing hookups for refrigerators, dishwashers, and washing machines. Years ago the solid rubber hoses similar to a cheap garden hose were acceptable; today they must be the braided reinforced types.

I know. You buy yours at the same place I buy mine, Home Depot. Frankly, I don't care if the braided riser tubes are approved by my local code or not - I use them. I remember the good old days of working with the plated, hard copper riser tubes, and they were terrible to install compared with the new style.

I don't have any facts about what various plumbing codes say about the Watts/Guest style plumbing. I am just passing along what my plumber told me, about what he doesn't want to get involved in, due to liability concerns.

I know that I have learned the hard way about plastic, and am now over-sensitive, no question. We are going back to our MN house next week. It is just over 30 years old. Before the summer is out, I will have gone through all of the accessible plumbing, and will do the practical, piece-of-mind things, like replacing any steel-braided riser tube over 10 years old, supply lines to the clothes washer, screw-on piercing type saddle valves, things that have rubber or plastic content. Plus, I have a new frig and a new dishwasher ordered. (Probably as likely to leak as the old ones, but I learned from my insurance company that if the appliance is new and causes damage, the insurance company - State Farm, in my case - will go after the appliance company's insurance through subrogation, which they could not do in the case of my recent water claim, due to the older age of the refrigerator. I carry high deductibles on everything, and I know State Farm will go after others if they feel there is liability, as they recovered my deductible and more via subrogation on a car collision claim a few years back). Wherever I am left with plastic, such as the espresso machine, I will just do my best with good quality and attentiveness. I think it's a small risk that I am more than willing to live with, but one that I am more aware of now than in the past.

BillK

HB wrote:It's hard to imagine they would knowingly sell plumbing supplies that are not up to code.

You need to work your imagination a bit more often there, brother Dan!

Lessee, I bet the conversation went something like this;
"Hey, these are no longer compliant under the new housing plumbing codes!"
"Are they still selling well?"
"Well, yeah, but..."
"Put 'em back on the shelf."
The truth be told, plumbing kit gets sold for all kinds of things, houses are just the largest piece of that pie. And, they have no control over what you do with it, they just make it available. Add to that that most codes in most places do not apply to the homeowner, (most jurisdictions' punitive actions revolve around licensing) unless they present a danger.
Plus, braided hose is great.
My worries about any kind of leaking comes directly from the machine itself. I did the rest of the plumbing, and used beefy, manly parts, and I'm not concerned that any of that will (knock wood) give out before the machine overfills itself to death...

Some of the HomeDepot plastic transparent lines are rated for only 50 psi. That's what I read on the box.

I use metal reinforced lines to the espresso machine and filters. I use brass fittings. Metal reinforced lines are considered much more durable against possible cracks. Same thing goes for washer lines. Usually the ones that come with the machine are not metal reinforced because metal reinforced lines are more expensive. One day I was at home and heard a noise on the basement. It was the line to the washing machine that had cracked open and the water was gushing out fast. Hadn't I been there, it would have been an expensive mess. I've put metal reinforced lines from then on just in case.

There are some water sensor alarms on amazon that I keep meaning to buy. Can anybody recommend a good model?

Ben Z. wrote:There are some water sensor alarms on amazon that I keep meaning to buy. Can anybody recommend a good model?

I've had this leak detector shutoff controller installed for a number of years. Works like a charm to not only signal a water leak but automatically shutoff the water feed to stop from having a flood.
http://www.watercontrollerinc.com/leak_controller.html

Also see Concerns about flooding from a plumbed in espresso machine and Flood Mitigation for Plumbed Espresso Machines.

One more data point: In the municipality where I live, flexible hose with stainless-steel braid is considered "per code", and flexible hose without SS braid is not.
But it's not like the potential for damage could not be anticipated and dealt with.
If walls are sealed at the joint to the floor, cabinets with plumbing get bottoms lined with plastic, and a nearby floor drain is positioned at the lowest point of the floor, then the likelihood and extent of "flood damage" from plumbing failures is reduced by a few orders of magnitude.

Or am I just simplifying this too much?
-Ed

Advantage of auto-shut off versus just alarm is of course shuts off water. Flooding can be caused not just by failed plumbing to the machine but also a failed line or fitting in the machine. I had an internal T fitting crack and start leaking like crazy. Didn't matter that machine was turned off, water line pressure still there. Counter got just a bit wet before hit sensor and water line flipped close. Didn't need to be home to hear the alarm and manually turn off the water feed...

I do like the installations going a step further and also shutting off power to the espresso machine if leak detected. Will have to add that one of these days, already use X10 appliance module as my on/off timer.

The link for the autoshutoff valve above led me to find another one

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wat...ction-systems.html

It can take upto 4 sensors daisy chained
the valve rotates every day so it is never stuck
batteries last 4 years but recommend change every 2

In my case, I have a birdnest of lines and filters under the sink. I may get one I could put one inside the cabinet with all the mess (if the valve leaks itself, it could shutoff), another sensor under the espresso machine, and another on the floor just in case

decaf_Ed wrote:One more data point: In the municipality where I live, flexible hose with stainless-steel braid is considered "per code", and flexible hose without SS braid is not.
But it's not like the potential for damage could not be anticipated and dealt with.
If walls are sealed at the joint to the floor, cabinets with plumbing get bottoms lined with plastic, and a nearby floor drain is positioned at the lowest point of the floor, then the likelihood and extent of "flood damage" from plumbing failures is reduced by a few orders of magnitude.
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Or am I just simplifying this too much?
-Ed

Compared to installing a leak detector with an auto shutoff valve me thinks remodeling to add drain in the middle of most kitchens or home bar areas would be complicating, not simplifying... Not to mention most floors are designed to be level no sloped, so make that new floor with purposeful slope to new drain.

Arpi wrote:The link for the autoshutoff valve above led me to find another one

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/wat...ction-systems.html

It can take upto 4 sensors daisy chained

That system is the more industrial (and appropriately priced) version of the leak controller I have.

I haven't had a problem with mine. I have tested it a few times and it works well. I sit the sensor on a paper towel to expand its coverage area. I have one under my machine and one under the filters. FYI, you can daisy chain a whole bunch of the sensors together, as all they do is cause a short down the line, tripping the valve to close.

I do not have a RO setup, but I wonder what the sensors would do if RO water was leaked after the membrane... I think they'd be useless.

I have the same as Mark. I've not just tested mine but had it do it's job when an internal T fitting split on my Bric'. Unfortunately it works too when Debi's a bit too rambunctious with water at the sink and splashed the counter all the way over to the Bric'. Got a call at the cafe from her last Saturday about the espresso machine loudly beeping...was the leakcontroller unit beeping behind the Bric'.

You guys are terrible. I keep buying all these gadgets. I am thinking on a espresso gadget-rack (like a server rack) and wires-lines ties to keep things neat.

So far I got the killlawatt, the digital timer to wake up and have the machine warm, now the leak detector (got the bigger one), the shot timer, the digital thermometer for ambient temperature, the thermocouple adapter for E61, hmm... a gauge to tell me the output pressure of the adjustable water regulator. That's it