It is the 5 year open and close cycle that keeps the Teflon from cold flowing and leaking. If you never open it up or re-torque then they leak, eventually.

The machine that sets in a resturant/cafe for years and is never PMed is not going to be in great shape even if water quality was always maintained.

JohnB. wrote:I'm surprised that LM isn't using a flat teflon gasket on the heating element plate. Based on my experience with the Speedster they seem to hold up indefinitely. I pull the steam boiler element out for scale inspection every 12-18 months. Just had it out a few weeks ago & the original gasket still looked fine after 5 years.

The Speedster's must be of a higher quality than the Teflon gasket used by La Cimbali on my Junior. Mine leaked well before the 3 year point and needed replacement. Machine was built in 2008 and was leaking by 2011. It was very brittle and broke into numerous pieces when I pulled out the element.

OldNuc wrote:There are a couple of o-ring materials that would last a couple of normal lifetimes and even allow for a removal and replace without o-ring replacement but the drawback is they are expensive.

Expensive perhaps. Not as expensive as a $500 Gicar controller.

Slow leaks should be annoying at most. In the case of La Marzocco GS/3, they have the propensity to become a really expensive repair. From the steam boiler to the cable harness, wicked into the box and all the way to the PCB. Where it sits in-between the PCB and the plastic box causing random shorts (the PCB Standoffs are really short - perhaps a mm - capillary action keeping any water firmly sandwiched between the board and the plastic box).

If only La Mazocco would have bolted the Gicar to the top side of the box (rather than to the bottom), slow leaks would not have the propensity to kill the controller.

I used conformal coating on the replacement Gicar, but now thinking about it - extending the standoffs would make a great way to keep the "brain" away from water damage. I am not sure there is enough room in there under the mains switch, but I'll look into it next time I take it apart.

For reasons that just defy understanding these rather expensive machines use the lowest cost sealing and gasketing material you can get your hands on. Then there is the placing of heat and moisture sensitive electronics in inappropriate locations. Just strange ...

Yes, so true! And when this is pointed out to the designers and the distributors they take strong offense to it rather than see it as constructive criticism and a possible learning experience.

That is one of the reasons I sold mine.

OldNuc wrote:For reasons that just defy understanding these rather expensive machines use the lowest cost sealing and gasketing material you can get your hands on. Then there is the placing of heat and moisture sensitive electronics in inappropriate locations. Just strange ...

Perhaps, but standards is something I like - especially since moving from California to Sunny Israel and Espresso Parts in Rainy Seattle is now many miles away. Having a machine I can service myself using components I can source off of eBay (or even a local appliance spare parts distributor) is way better than having a "consumer grade" machine I need to ship.

I like my GS/3 - a lot. I had 5 rainy days throughout 5 years of dependable daily service. I like that ratio. It suits me fine.

It is not standards or maintainability, it is a matter of using materials that are compatible with a high temperature steam-water environment. Buna-N, Viton, and Silicon are not compatible and will fail rather rapidly, EPDM and the several different teflon types are compatible.

AssafL wrote:Expensive perhaps. Not as expensive as a $500 Gicar controller.

Slow leaks should be annoying at most. In the case of La Marzocco GS/3, they have the propensity to become a really expensive repair. From the steam boiler to the cable harness, wicked into the box and all the way to the PCB. Where it sits in-between the PCB and the plastic box causing random shorts (the PCB Standoffs are really short - perhaps a mm - capillary action keeping any water firmly sandwiched between the board and the plastic box).

If only La Mazocco would have bolted the Gicar to the top side of the box (rather than to the bottom), slow leaks would not have the propensity to kill the controller.

I used conformal coating on the replacement Gicar, but now thinking about it - extending the standoffs would make a great way to keep the "brain" away from water damage. I am not sure there is enough room in there under the mains switch, but I'll look into it next time I take it apart.

I was told previously by La Marzocco to just drill "drain" holes in the bottom of the box, under the board, so that if water was to leak into the box, it could escape before pooling up and causing damage. To me, this is an incredibly amateurish answer to a very serious, reoccurring problem.

The particular La Marzocco line item identification for their current seals (both heating elements and heat exchanger) is OR 4150 Viton 75 SHA. OR 4150 is an Italian size specification (ID of 37.69 mm, CS of 3.53 mm) that translates, rather precisely, to the more universal AS568A dash size of -222.

When visiting the McMaster-Carr site on O-rings, http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=v1zqd7, EPDM has a temp rating of 212F whereas Viton goes up to 400F. So, Rich, when you say,

Buna-N, Viton, and Silicon are not compatible and will fail rather rapidly, EPDM and the several different teflon types are compatible.

What particular, reasonably available, EPDM did you have in mind?

I was told previously by La Marzocco to just drill "drain" holes in the bottom of the box, under the board, so that if water was to leak into the box, it could escape before pooling up and causing damage. To me, this is an incredibly amateurish answer to a very serious, reoccurring problem.

I would not call it amateurish but, hey, that's just me. A better solution could be to offer lower box halves pre-drilled on an exchange basis and perhaps some labor consideration for a technician to do the install if necessary. There have been lots of improvements to the GS/3 in the past eight(?) years and I would say that the in toto LM response to field problems has been pretty darn good.

edit - I realize the McMaster-Carr link does not work as I intended, but their appropriate catalog page starts with 3500.