espresso machines at 1st-line.com

Rancilio Silvia: Odd steam problem after adjusting brew pressure - Page 2

Postby JimG on Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:55 pm

Aaaaack! That looks really bad.

Theory: something local to that connection is creating extra resistance, which in turn is generating extra heat. The connection might be bad enough that it is limiting the current available to the heating coil (a possible explanation for your poor steam).

Observe that the corresponding connector on the other heater tab is still in good shape. Both of these should carry the same current and be exposed to the same temperature. So there's clearly something out of the ordinary going on at the burned side.

Replace the crimped connector. If the burning repeats, then there's a problem with the heating coil.

Jim

EDIT -- Sorry, Eric, didn't see your reply had already been posted.
JimG
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Location: Lexington, KY

Postby rickrobin on Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:10 pm

Thanks Eric and Jim. I spoke with a tech at Chris Coffee, who concurred with you guys about the connection. I replaced the connector, but steaming is not improved. The Chris guy didn't think the heating element would be bad if the brewing performance is good; he did think the steam stat was probably bad, so I ordered one, for a big $9.50. (Not only are they super helpful, but their parts prices seem to be the best around, btw.) Maybe the arcing connector took out the stat? Anyway, I'll be sure to post an update, FYI. Thanks again for your help!

Rick
rickrobin
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Dec 26, 2008
Location: New York
www.orphanespresso.com: lever espresso machine parts, manual grinders
www.orphanespresso.com: lever espresso machine parts, manual grinders

Postby ira on Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:19 pm

That should probably be replaced with a high temp nickel plated steel faston, if you can't find one ask me privately and I'll see if I have one to drop in the mail. I think I had to buy 100 when I had the same problem on my Capresso drip machine.

Ira
ira
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Location: los angeles

Postby wideawake on Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:55 pm

rickrobin wrote:I find that if I adjust the valve until the gauge reads around 10 bar, although brew performance seems fine, the machine cannot generate sufficient steam. .


I think I have the same problem. Today I replaced my RTD probe with a K-type thermocouple for my PID, and adjusted the PID. Silvia now generates significantly less steam (the steam thermostat opens at 275* instead of the 290* previously).

2 steps forward, 1 step back...
Any ideas here before I quit and just go to Murky on my way to work every morning instead?
Thanks
Peter
wideawake
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Jun 18, 2008
Location: Washington, DC

Postby wideawake on Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:09 pm

Upon further review, I think that it is a faulty steam thermostat. The temp that it opens varies widely (a minute ago, it opened at 290*, but I just tried it again and it opened at 230*).

The machine is a few years old. Instead of ordering a new thermostat, I may just install the alarm steam control. Any thoughts on where to buy the diodes?


Thanks

Peter
wideawake
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Jun 18, 2008
Location: Washington, DC

Postby rickrobin on Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:25 am

Well, I replaced the steam stat - no difference. I used to be able to open the steam valve, like, three times in a row for a few seconds each time to get nice, dry steam, then froth 4 to 8 oz of milk without a squeal. Now if I bleed it like that I can't do anything. It has full pressure off the bat, but no staying power. If I bleed it a few times while it's heating (instead of waiting till the light goes out) it's usually alright, but I didn't HAVE to do it that way before. As it is now, if there's head water when the light goes out and I bleed till it's dry, I have to blow the whole charge and let it cycle again - whereupon it steams like a champ.

There's no problem with brewing pressure/temp - but I did have to go back to 10 to 10.5 bar on my gauge. I assume the gauge is out of calibration, because it brews beautifully now, where at 9.5 it was anemic - pucks were bone dry. (15g.) Does this make sense?

All three stats all show full continuity when tested out of the circuit, as does my clip repair, as does the heater coil, minus the correct 16 ohms or so.

So what the *&^%$ ? If the coil were encrusted with scale, would it produce these symptoms? I thought I had the water thing together, but since it seems to be the only thing left, maybe not. You think?
rickrobin
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Dec 26, 2008
Location: New York

Postby Randy G. on Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:48 am

rickrobin wrote: If the [heating..?] coil were encrusted with scale, would it produce these symptoms? I thought I had the water thing together, but since it seems to be the only thing left, maybe not. You think?


That was my next guess. You say that you have had it for years? What water are you using and how often has it been descaled? If the answers are "tap" and "never" then get some "Dezcal" and have at it. Also, remove the steam tip from the wand and check to make sure it is clean.
Espresso! My Espresso!
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
User avatar
Randy G.
 
Posts: 2223
Joined: May 12, 2007
Location: Yankee Hill, CA

Postby JimG on Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:31 am

rickrobin wrote:If I bleed it a few times while it's heating (instead of waiting till the light goes out) it's usually alright, but I didn't HAVE to do it that way before. As it is now, if there's head water when the light goes out and I bleed till it's dry, I have to blow the whole charge and let it cycle again - whereupon it steams like a champ.

That sounds pretty normal to be honest. You'll get much better steaming performance at temperatures above 275F. The light usually goes off at 290F to 300F. The steam thermostat will allow the temps to drop into the 250's before it switches back on.

rickrobin wrote:There's no problem with brewing pressure/temp - but I did have to go back to 10 to 10.5 bar on my gauge. I assume the gauge is out of calibration, because it brews beautifully now, where at 9.5 it was anemic - pucks were bone dry. (15g.) Does this make sense?

No it doesn't :) . You would probably have had to use a slightly coarser grind with the 9.5 bar setting. But besides that I would not expect any significant differences in the way a shot is pulled.

rickrobin wrote:So what the *&^%$ ? If the coil were encrusted with scale, would it produce these symptoms? I thought I had the water thing together, but since it seems to be the only thing left, maybe not. You think?

I'll piggyback on Randy's suggestion to check the steam wand. You may have something clogging it. The tip comes off (standard right hand thread), but be gentle.

Just for grins, put a stopwatch on your heater. Time it from when you flip on the steam switch until the orange light goes off again. Should be around 90 seconds. If the heater is badly scaled then your machine might take a lot longer.

Jim
JimG
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Location: Lexington, KY

Postby rickrobin on Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:31 pm

Thanks very much Randy and Jim!

The steam wand is clear. I'm very good about that.

Water: I have an elaborate water treatment system on my well that removes the iron and magnesium, and normalizes the ph. But it doesn't remove calcium, which is prodigious. My solution has been to use a Brita, strictly, for brew water. (Reagent strip shows about 100ppm of hardness shortly before I change the cartridge.) I've been descaling with citric acid (10 grams/liter) every three months. Since the hardness in the Brita water is probably all calcium, maybe this isn't often enough. But I don't see much of anything in the descale water, and there are no other symptoms of scaling that I've noticed.

Jim - I know that how I described it sounds fairly normal, but I assure you the steaming capacity has changed markedly. As you know from the title of this thread, this seemed to happen exactly when I was adjusting the OPV (I know, I know - whatever!). Before that the only thing I noticed was that sometimes there would be more head water than usual - which did result in insufficient steam, as now, if I cleared it all. But that only happened occasionally, and I chalked it up to the vagaries of the beast. Then the apparently arcing contact situation seemed a more than likely explanation.

As for the OPV adjustment, I had to grind 3 NOTCHES coarser on my Tranquilo, and it hardly seemed to matter - it just wasn't right. The difference between 9.5 and 10 on the gauge was dramatic - like throwing a switch. (OPV sounds suspect, eh? Possible reason follows, below.) The gauge is steady, and reads exactly the same a day later, hot or cold. The pump holds pressure, and the 3-way valve opens. Anyway, at 10.5, the espresso is smooth, flavorful, and crema-laden.

But here's one more crazy thing for you: When I was adjusting the OPV initially, I didn't get the drain line loose enough, and it kinked. Then, in the process of trying to pry it loose, I tore it; so I snipped it, put it back on, and it's fine. But when it was kinked, the OPV would squeal when brewing. (That's why I went back in and discovered the kink.) Also, clearly due to the restricted line, my pressure gauge would fibrillate like crazy, and the lowest I could get it was about 11.5. But - and you're really gonna think I'm nuts now - the coffee the thing made under those circumstances was the creamiest, richest, densest, most delicious stuff I ever had, anywhere! Maybe it was just the blend I was using at the time - home-roast which, naturally, I immediately ran out of. Or maybe I've made the greatest discovery in espresso history! : )

I don't know what I'm smiling at - this business is driving me crazy, already!
rickrobin
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Dec 26, 2008
Location: New York

Postby erics on Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:59 pm

Just to add a second to Jim's numbers as regards the time it takes for the steam light going out, I pulled Silvia out of hibernation. On a fully warmed up machine, it took 85 seconds and the light went out at 295 F boiler top shell temperature.

On cleaning the steam wand, there is a chance that some "large" fragment was removed during one of your descaling adventures and got carried/found its way into the wand. Removing the entire wand is relatively easy as is the tip and it can't hurt to check by passing a flexible wire through with the tip removed.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at erols dot com
User avatar
erics
 
Posts: 2986
Joined: Aug 09, 2005
Location: Silver Spring, MD
www.evocationcoffee.com: artisan roaster with passion for great coffee
www.evocationcoffee.com: artisan roaster with passion for great coffee

PreviousNext

Return to Espresso Machines