Hi All,

I recently picked up a used 2005 Quickmill Anita. I have been doing a lot of reading on the pages here in trying to isolate the problem(s) I'm having. The amount of information on this site is mind boggling. I really appreciate it! No way I would have been as comfortable with the work I've done thus far, without it.

So on to my troubles:
Upon pulling my first shots with the machine (post 45 minute warm up) I noticed that the temperature of the espresso didn't seem right. Luke warm really. I checked the water coming out of the group with a thermocouple, and the single portafilter in place. It was ~160 F. Hmmm. So I let the machine continue to warm up for another hour, and checked the water temperature again. This time it was ~210 F. Seemed like an unusually long warm up, but at least it got up to temp. I pulled a couple shots, with at least 45 seconds recovery between them, and checked the temperature again. ~145 F? So it appears the temperature of the water coming out of the group is dropping very quickly.

After a fair bit of googling HX machines, and the troubles with them, I decided it was time to have a look at the machines mushroom (much thanks to a post on this site detailing the procedure!). Here is a picture of what I found (sorry about the image quality, but hopefully you can see the little green/blue bits):



Sure enough there was some scale. I'm not sure if scale could be the culprit, but seems like it couldn't help. In my google searching I came across a lot of material on the descaling process. After reading, then re-reading, then printing, then re-reading again , I think I'm finally at a point where I would be comfortable attempting a descale. And likely will shortly. But before doing the descale I wanted to get a look inside the boiler. I was thinking that draining the boiler, and pulling the heating element would be a good way to do this. So last night that's what I attempted.

While letting the machine warm up (prior to draining the boiler) I also noted the machines behavior a bit more closely, hoping to possibly pick up any final clues to the brew temp issue:

After ~5 minutes warming up, the water in the boiler begins to boil, and the vacuum breaker seals. A few moments later the boiler pressure settles at 1.2-1.25 bar. Seemed reasonable. Shortly there after though the group pressure goes from 0 to 2.25 bar? Seemed strange? And for the rest of the warm up cycle that's the state the machine stayed in.

After about an hour, I turned off the machine and unplugged it. I opened up the hot water valve and drained the boiler.

Now to remove the heating element, and get a look. Or not... As much as I wanted to, I couldn't get the heating element to budge. And I mean I really tried. To the point of having the machine casing flex. Nothing. So for now the heating element has won. Is anyone aware of any tricks to get them out? I had a thought that it might just be scale buildup making it difficult to remove? I'd really like to see inside the boiler for a before/after comparison. But I dunno, the element seems pretty stuck...

So barring any suggestions you all might have, I'm thinking It's time to run the HX + boiler through a descale? Any thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks so much!
-Nate

If I were you, I wouldn't take the heating element out or disassemble the machine any further. I'd just run a descale procedure with the machine fully assembled. That will usually do the trick unless the machine has an epic amount of scale in it.

Nate -

Some rambling paragraphs:

The pic of your "mushroom" assembly shows only a minimal amount of scale build-up but that may simply mean that the previous owner cleaned that part on several occasions. Your description of the problem is very much like a thermosyphon stall which - congratulations this would be a first (I believe) for a Quickmill machine. With the brew lever in the full down position, there should be no visible leakage. Leakage out of the hx circuit will create an air pocket and almost surely cause the thermosyphon action to diminish. You should get a near instantaneous flow of water anytime you initiate a flush.

After 45 minutes of warmup, especially at your pstat setting, Anita should be "good to go". You should NOT be able to keep your fingers on the grouphead assembly. The first several ounces of flushing should be a combination of sputtering water and steam.

What thermocouple and what meter are you using to measure the water temps?

When first turning on a cold Anita (or just about any Hx machine) and after a couple of seconds delay, you should hear the boiler fill for about 5 seconds max. There should be no further boiler fills until you do some steaming.

As far as removing the heating element, it takes a 1-1/2 inch socket (6 point preferred - but could be rare) and you most definitely need to provide a counterhold at the bottom of the boiler with an adjustable strap wrench or wedge a large screwdriver at the top between some of the fittings at their base. Check to make sure you did not already bend some of the hx piping with your first effort.

My Anita has also been having isolated incidents where the group fails to heat up even after an hour or more, or heats up properly but then loses temperature later. Running some water through the group seems to fix the problem. I'm guessing it's thermosyphon stall caused by some scale buildup. I suppose I need to descale again, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Shortly after I got the Vibiemme HX, I had a stall problem. Operator error I was flushing just a bit of water out of the group to clean the screen after a shot. With just the right flush, within a few minutes, the group temp dropped like a rock. Now, I either leave the spent puck in place if making another shot presently or flush to clean and then backflush with the blind basket to full pressure. Problem solved

Thanks for the replies all! Yeah sorry about the rambling paragraphs. What can I say, espresso makes my mind wander... And these machines are so wonderfully complicated, it's tough to know where to start, and end.

First off, the hx piping appears well aligned with the boiler, so I believe all is well there. The thermocouple/thermometer I'm using is the Fluke 52, type K/J. Hmmm, thermosyphon, I was sort of hoping that particular term wouldn't come up. I've read a little bit about it, but it doesn't seem intuitively obvious exactly how that works . I don't see/hear any type of leakage, so I don't think leakage is an issue. Indeed after the long warm up, the first several ounces (~6oz) are a combination of sputtering and steam. And the group is hot enough that a one-onethousand touch, is difficult. After the initial flush there is no sputtering/steam, though the group remains painfully hot.

I attempted to run another (more controlled?) temperature experement this evening, and here is what I got:

With sufficient warm up time (>45mins), and with portafilter installed, Anita pushes out water/steam at 209 F, which falls to 198 F within 6oz's. I measured this by stuffing the business end of the thermocouple/thermometer, and a wad of tin foil, up into the pf drain. The pf/thermocouple combo was left in place for all measurements.

1.5 minutes later I pulled 30sec's worth of water through the group and it measured: 197-180 F.

Another 1.5 minute break, and 30 second pull yielded temps of: 182-171 F.
Another 1.5 minute break, and 30 second pull yielded temps of: 187-172 F.
Another 1.5 minute break, and 30 second pull yielded temps of: 182-168 F.
Another 1.5 minute break, and 30 second pull yielded temps of: 181-166 F.

I definitely wouldn't rule out operator error here, but what I did was pretty straightforward, so if there was an error, hopefully it will be quickly identified.

Thanks!
-Nate

What's the boiler pressure at each interval?

You can get a relative group temperature value by 'wedging' the end of a bare thermocouple next to the 6mm bolt on the front of the group and holding it in place with duct tape.

What happens if you pull onto a blind basket, wait and then read the temperature test. If the group temperature remains level, the drop is caused by gas in the thermosyphon circuit.

I'm measuring internal temps at the location which Ian suggested:



Anita cannot handle 1.5 minute intervals as the size of her hx is only ~ 0.1 liters. 30 seconds worth of flushing is, as you have measured, a lot of water.

Eric - If the Hx on Anita is about 100 ml. then there is room in there for just about two shots if you don't have to flush at all on consecutive shots. If you want to pull several consecutive shots for guests and 1.5 minutes isn't enough time to recover then I ask if there is a way using the grouphead thermometer to determine when is a good time to pull the next shot without flushing?

I should just do the experiment but I have not had to make many consecutive shots yet. After a flush and go the thermometer generally goes down for a while and then stabilizes before rising. Do you just wait for it to stabilize and perhaps rise 1/2 degree and then pull the next shot?

Ian/Eric,
When you suggest duct taping the thermocouple near the 6mm bolt, is that the dispersion screen bolt? Or are you talking about the allen bolt on the outside/front of the group? Seems like if you were measuring the outside of the group, rather than the water going through it, that it would take longer to see the change in temperature? Like the response might come out looking damped? But I could give it a try.

Also, just wanted to make it clear that when I say 1.5 minute break, I'm talking about recovery. I assumed a longer recovery would allow the hx water to gain more heat, before the next 30 second flush? Would you guys suggest a different interval for the measurements?

I'll run them again tonight (this time noting the boiler pressure as well), and also try the blind basket case, as Ian suggests.

Thanks so much!
-Nate