One thing worth mentioning about this machine is a potential problem with its packaging. My friend was going to purchase one of these last Friday from WS, unfortunately the only machine left was the display model and there was a dent in the brushed metal on the back splash. The sales woman told him it came out of the box this way and thus it was chosen as the display unit. The dent looks to have been caused by the steam nozzle. I forwarded this thread to my friend and he pointed out the exact same dent in the machine Dan and Co used for their testing. Look closely at the second photo in this thread (the photo during extraction), you can see the dent just above the cup. I'm guessing the steam nozzle isn't secured properly when shipping. Anyone looking to purchase one of these might want to take it out of the box before buying. Not possible with online purchases though. My friend was going to buy the machine anyways as WS was going to take another 10% off the 20% promotion they had. 30% off a unit that had only been on display a couple days! Not bad. He contacted the Breville rep to see about purchasing a new back splash plate but even the rep was not able to tell him if they were available for purchase separately. He passed on the display unit but got a rain check for the next shipment.

cpreston wrote:It's a very interesting machine. I hope HB will fully review one.

From what I've read, Mark Prince on CoffeeGeek is planning a detailed review and a series of senior member "road trip" reviews. I'll organize some blind taste tests and report the results in this thread, but given the already ample coverage on CoffeeGeek, no formal review on this site is planned.

boar_d_laze wrote:Just as an "off the cuff," how would you compare the Breville's quality in the cup, to more expensive DBs, like current La Spaz, VBMDD, and/or Brewtus? What about a top of the line DB like the GS/3?

The attendees and I didn't sample enough espressos from it for an informed opinion. The Breville's espressos for this particular coffee tasted brighter/fruitier and had lower body than those from the Strada; it's far too early to conclude these characteristics are intrinsic to the Breville. I hope to try some blind taste tests for our get-together on Friday.

Beezer wrote:Just curious, where did you find a naked portafilter for this machine?

I asked Breville to include one with the evaluation unit.

Beezer wrote:Also, did you happen to notice whether the brew pressure was in the 9 bar range?

Yes, the onboard brew pressure gauge indicates it's in proper range.

nixter wrote: Look closely at the second photo in this thread (the photo during extraction), you can see the dent just above the cup. I'm guessing the steam nozzle isn't secured properly when shipping.

I also noticed the ding, but didn't associate it with the steam wand until reading your post. You're correct, the ding aligns with the steam wand tip. Shipping damage could be the cause. I haven't opened the casing to check the thickness of the brushed stainless exterior, but judging from tapping on it, it looks and sounds like a thin steel "wrap" for aesthetic purposes (?).

I'm sure that plate is quite thin. Did you remove the metal drip tray? That piece is VERY thin. Feels like you could bend it with a dirty look. An error in shipping design/materials shouldn't reflect on the engineering of the machine. I still have high hopes for this unit.

HB wrote:I also noticed the ding, but didn't associate it with the steam wand until reading your post. You're correct, the ding aligns with the steam wand tip. Shipping damage could be the cause. I haven't opened the casing to check the thickness of the brushed stainless exterior, but judging from tapping on it, it looks and sounds like a thin steel "wrap" for aesthetic purposes (?).

Dan,

If it's anything like the 800esxl I had, the outer panels were no thicker than the "skin" glued onto the front of the water reservoir. It's looks like hunks of billet aluminum but is anything but. Still, something's got to give for the price point.

uscfroadie wrote:If it's anything like the 800esxl I had, the outer panels were no thicker than the "skin" glued onto the front of the water reservoir. It's looks like hunks of billet aluminum but is anything but. Still, something's got to give for the price point.

As for the construction, yes, the lower body is stainless steel 'skin' on a plastic skeleton. I wish they would have opted for a thicker gauge on the drip tray cover as it is thin w/o reinforcement.

another_jim wrote:Thanks for the report. I can't help you with the BDB specifically; but I've done taste comparisons on lots of machines and can give a general technique:

Make the best shot possible on your usual grinder and machine, using your favorite coffee. Note the grind setting and the brew ratio (dose weight/shot weight)
For the test, the coffee, grind setting, and brew ratio are sacrosanct (trust me on this and save yourself the time, if you can't get up to snuff with them, you won't get anywhere using other grinds or brew ratios)
Your goal is to get a shot as good or better than you old gear, keeping the coffee, brew ratio and grind the same and varying dose, baskets, temperature and pressure. If you do get close or better, you will know how to set up the machine, which baskets to use, and how to dose them.
This method of comparing has, over the last seven years, given me moral certainty, if not scientific proof, about which machines make the cut, and which do not. YMMV

Thanks to Jim for baselining me on an approach to this machine. I roasted a couple pounds of Brazilian and found a good temp/grind on my Cimbali M31. The result was a nice ristretto that I pulled before any blonding. I repeated a few times and brew ratio was around 75% (grinds:shot).

I took the same grind/dose/basket/temp to the BDB and the first shot while better than previous, it was still lacked any body. Removing the PF I noticed the top of the puck was much drier and had the screen imprint - something I definitely avoid on my Cimbali. It seems that the BDB has less headroom above the puck than my machine for the same basket/dose.

I switched out the basket for a triple with more headroom. same grind/dose at 196deg and 6s pre-infusion. it was a much better shot than previous on BDB. finally, some body but it was a bit fast due to not being able to get a decent tamp as i hit the taper on the basket.

i pulled another, with a higher does (19g) and it was as good or better than the shots from my Cimbali. i pulled the shot at 39s and there was no sign of blonding. definitely ristretto, with brew ratio near 100%. Dare I say too much body?

i backed off the grind a bit and kept the same dose (19g) and pulled another. as expected, a goupy ristretto pour with a bit lower brew ratio (~85%). It was great - dark, thick, chocolate, and nutty tones. I repeated several times and each was as good as the last.

sorry for the freakout in my earlier post. i was being fooled by some old beans and no head-room above the puck on the BDB. after a string of very-good to excellent shots, i'm beginning to think this machine will make many people happy.

Just curious, what is brew ratio?

See Brewing ratios for espresso beverages.

Great to see you getting some good shots..

Breville recommend a PI of 5 to 15 seconds and a power of 55 to 60 ?

So what PI were you using and is you count for the shot; including the PI time or if not, when do you start the count...

I have rarely used a PI above 3 or 4 sec and consider that as part of the shot time...

Mind you, the numbers are still only a guide and it's what's in the cup that truly counts..

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the clarification. Would it be possible for you to further elaborate on the group head pid / element?

Is it a closed loop? How does one adjust the group head separate from the main boiler temp.

Is the main display temp the boiler temp, or the temp at the group head, just above the shower screen.

Which units have 100W heating elements, and which units have 200W heating units, and are these just turned on or off? based on a true pid for the grouphead, or based on the main boiler pid with estimated or adjusted offset factors?

Thanks!

mcknightp wrote:Hi,

I'd like to introduce myself, I'm Phil McKnight & I work for Breville in AUS. Just like to answer a few queries if I can.

There is a separate PID that controls the element embedded in the group head, but it is not adjustable.

The lugs on the PF/Group are proprietory & more "regular" patterns like LM/Synesso etc don't fit straight in. The PF is deep enough to take a 18g VST, but the 21g VST is a little snug against the floor & might not yield perfect results, but clearly a naked would be OK. You will have to remove the plastic floor to fit in the 18g VSTs.

The Steam Boiler is running at ~1.6bar. It's not PID controlled, but just by an NTC temp sensor. Dan's machine might be just one on the lower end of the temp spec causing it to appear to be a little under powered. It might not be super fast, but it's consistent and it does produce really silky shiny micro-foam.

Cheers, Phil

As promised, this past Friday we met to try the Breville BES800XL side-by-side with some commercial and semi-commercial equipment. The Breville was paired with the Compak K10:


Breville BES800XL and Compak K10

Because we wanted to elicit easily discernible differences between the equipment, we selected Counter Culture Coffee's Finca Mauritania as the test coffee since single-origin coffees are typically more sensitive to dose/temperature/extraction changes than commercial bar blend espressos. Finca Mauritania a lightly fruited coffee with subtle notes of chocolate and ample creaminess. Their official description is excerpted below:

Counter Culture Coffee wrote:With a malt-like creamy texture, this perfect autumn espresso is anchored by rich notes of pure cocoa and sweet stone fruit.

If pulled incorrectly, Finca may not suffer in the initial tasting, but the finish may be acrid or medicinal. A few of mine started out that way, but a change in brew ratio corrected it (i.e., going from ristretto 80% to near-normale 60%). Surprisingly we managed to go through practically all of the 3 pounds of donated coffee in less than an hour:


Finca Mauritania single-origin espresso by Counter Culture Coffee

Because of some technical difficulties, I substituted the Elektra Semiautomatica for the previously announced Vibiemme DoubleDomo. Since the La Marzocco Strada was the "other" double boiler, I also paired it with the Compak K10. Alas I only have two of them, so the Semiautomatica was paired with a workhorse grinder, the Mazzer Super Jolly. Although I spent a tidy some of cash installing the Strada, I not-so-secretly hoped to best the other two baristas, Ian Stewart and Mike Zhu, only to prove deep familiarity with HX use can overcome fancy brew temperature controls (it didn't turn out that way).

Mike Zhu was the main barista on the Breville. He's the owner of New World Cafe in Raleigh. Below he's demonstrating his steaming chops:


Mike Zhu preparing cappuccino on Breville

As Mike demonstrated, practice does indeed make perfect. His cappuccinos were quite good, though it's worth mentioning that a cappuccino later made by Bob Barraza on the La Marzocco was noticeably sweeter. My focus was exclusively on straight espressos:


Dan dosing for Elektra

While the majority of my shots were good, my barista mojo was off: None of my espresso cracked the "very good to excellent" range. I offered various excuses at the time; yesterday (Saturday) and today (Sunday), I found the coffee more settled and dialing in very good espressos was a snap. I'll blame it on the coffee needing a bit more rest and the guy on the handle side of the portafilter getting sloppy about technique (yes, it happens).

Ian Stewart was rocking the house on the Strada:


Group temperatures are offset by 2°F to allow for quick side-by-side comparisons

We started the session by keeping track of who won each round. While I managed a few second places, Ian easily coasted into first place each time. Showoff!


Weighing dose before pull; Mike Zhu contemplates taste

The attendees agreed to post their feedback directly to this thread after I finished this introductory post. Thanks gentlemen for coming to the informal shootout! And yet another shoutout to Counter Culture Coffee for supplying coffee and Nathan Brown for the photos (the full album is here).