I just bought a Profitec 700 from WholeLatteLove. The instructions discuss prophylactic descaling. However only after I purchased the machine did they mention that softening the water was particularly important, as the descaler recommended by Profitec is not available in the US, and other descalers available in the US "are too harsh" for the machine.

However they did say that a softening filter (ECM Anti Scale Filter) would work. Confusingly the on-line description for this item says it is not for rotary pump machines. The Profitec 700 is a rotary. So I have written back to query them on this. I will provide an update when I hear back.

After just having bought the Profitec and a grinder, I really can't afford to soften (whole house) and I prefer not to have a countertop unit as it will eat up my undercounter space. I believe that Reverse Osmosis is to be avoided as overly pure water essentially turns into a solvent. Would you agree?

If you have a countertop unit you'd recommend that avoids RO I'd be interested to hear about it.

Does anyone know the story about either the descalers on the Profitec 700, or the ECM descaling filter for rotary pump machines? Why would WLL recommend this? Should I be wary?

This is my first post. I've read many. But if I've done something wrong or overlooked the obvious please go easy.

Thanks,

Mack

In theory at least, this machine should be less susceptible to scale due to the Stainless Steel boilers.

However, if you're not up for a water softening apparatus, you could buy bottled distilled or RO water at the supermarket (often comes in 4 litre containers).

You'd then mix this 50/50 with tap water and use that in the machine. That will halve your water hardness numbers, yet it will still have enough mineral content to allow the electrical signals to detect boiler levels etc.

Do you know what the water hardness is typically in your area? If not you could test it to determine the hardness with an aquarium kit or similar.

Is the machine plumbed in or will you use the tank?

If plumbed, you can buy standard 10" filter housing that can accept a 10" softener cartridge and these are relatively inexpensive ($20 for cartridge, and similar price for the housing).

If you're using tank, then you could consider the Brita jug; whose filters (at least some ice seen) do have softening capability.

Mouldy wrote:If plumbed, you can buy standard 10" filter housing that can accept a 10" softener cartridge and these are relatively inexpensive ($20 for cartridge, and similar price for the housing).

This has been my plan as I think forward to a future plumbed in machine. My water is crap.

Search this on Amazon and read comments, although there are a bunch out there:
Pentek 155319-03 Ws-10 10" Water Softening Cartridge

There is no reason you cannot descale your machine. Citric acid and water and descale when needed depending on your water hardness. It is a simple process, no reason you could not do it yourself. They say do not descale either because they assume the end consumer is an idiot and incapable of a simple procedure or so you will send it back to them for maintenance for added revenue. Do a search on the site for how to descale you will get pages and pages of instruction. My home water is around 130ppm and I just run a generic 10" carbon filter on the line to filter the water and descale every year and half or two. I also run my machine 24/7.

Many of us that have a generic softener & carbon filter set up use these: http://www.wateranywhere.com/product_in ... s_id=10091 Typically good for 8-10 months. Their carbon filters run about $7. No issues with the stainless boilers in my Speedster in over 5 years of continuous use.

Mackenzie,

I recently also acquired a Pro 700 (just a few weeks ago). My water hardness is at about 12-13 gpg, or very hard water. Before purchasing, investigation led to the decision to buy water. I use Eldorado natural spring water as an example which is around 3 or so gpg, I believe https://www.eldoradosprings.com/ and I'm thinking most locations have similar options.

I think that will keep descaling down minimum.

My understanding is that one reason to avoid descaling solutions etc. is because the boilers don't ever completely empty and so when descaling, there is not an ability to completely get rid of the cleaner. I hope other HB'ers correct Me if I'm mistaken. And some DB's have drain plugs, like the Lucca M58, I think; how does that feature come into play???

Research indicated a Brita filter would not correct 12 gpg hardness.

I also have a Profitec Pro 700 and I ordered the ECM Anti Scale Filter. I live in Austin, TX and I purchase Ozarka Total Hardness as caCO3 9.9-12, the report is below, not fully sure of what it all means. Also, not sure if there is a better water I should be buying instead.

Someone gave me a water test strip for a Jura machine, but it didn't work.

http://www.nestle-watersna.com/asset-li ... /O_ENG.pdf

Whole Latte Love has confirmed that the ECM softener filter, designed for a vibration pump that has more pull than a rotary pump, should not be used with in a Profitec 700 reservoir tank. There might not be enough water flow for the rotary pump and it might be damaged. I think someone mentioned that is what they were planning to do so I wanted to put this out there. Is any one using the ECM filter? How well is it working on the 700?

WLL has also confirmed that they can't find in the US an appropriate descaling solution for the Profitec. I've asked them the name of the descaling solution used in Europe and may try to import some. I have a suspicion they want to make money from me by performing the descale (current cost about $150) in 5 or 10 years' time. Multiply this by all the 700's they sell and that's a good revenue stream.

To be honest, my water is only 2 grains as measured by the city. Even if it doubles by the time it gets to my house that is still quite soft water, and I am diluting it with RO water 50:50. So I don't know why I'm obsessing about scale. I used to live in a hard water area, that's probably why. I run the 50:50 mix through a Brita carbon filter because the RO water comes in an plastic jug and tastes awfully plasticky.

I may get a softener/carbon filter undercounter setup if only because it is so inconvenient, and long-term costly, to keep buying the RO water.

I have not seen in my area any Brita filters that soften. I asked WLL about those and they recommend against, they say the results are too inconsistent. Anyone have thoughts on this? Or know where I could purchase online? (Sorry, I have not gotten around to looking yet to be honest).

People have pointed out that the stainless boilers are less likely to scale, but on the 700 there is copper piping with right-angles, valves, (and probably some heat sensors I imagine they intrude into the tank but I really don't know). I heard someone has uploaded a schematic to this site but I have yet to find it.

People also point out that if you descale, you could dislodge a piece of scale and it could block up something small, especially in the E61 group. I would counter that if you descale frequently enough that is unlikely to happen. My view is that it's like if you brush your teeth often enough your gums don't bleed (per my dentist anyway).

On the other hand I have heard from enough people that don't descale, have good water, and have lasted 10+ years. So I may just drop this pursuit.

mbrown205 wrote:Whole Latte Love has confirmed that the ECM softener filter, designed for a vibration pump that has more pull than a rotary pump, should not be used with in a Profitec 700 reservoir tank. There might not be enough water flow for the rotary pump and it might be damaged. I think someone mentioned that is what they were planning to do so I wanted to put this out there. Is any one using the ECM filter? How well is it working on the 700?

So I called WLL and asked for a 2-hole steam tip for my Pro 700 and talked to them about descaling. They told me to get the ECM Anti Scale Filter for Espresso Machines, so I ordered it over the phone and never looked it up on the web. I just called them up and said it cannot be used with the Pro 700, so they are crediting me back for it. Were very cool about it and must of thought I had the Pro 500.

On a side note...I live in Austin and use Ozarka Bottled Water...what do you all think of the results? I use the natural spring water...however I see nothing that it contains fluoride. So I hope it doesn't have any...Not sure what other bottled water I can get in Austin.