PID is an algorithm;
Little computers that implement this algorithm vary in cost; typically aimed at industrial uses, they need to be built to industrial standards for ruggedness, vibration, temperature, power. Some have fancy autotuning, some have ramp/soak programs. They often have communications options for remote monitoring and programming. And they must be super reliable for industry.

This is why they can be so expensive.

For a single setpoint on a home espresso machine, a simple hobbyist grade PID computer is just fine.
There are plenty in the $75-$100 range.

If you want to DIY you can build an Arduino based PID computer for around $30-$50. (need buttons, display, box)

superespressoguy wrote:1) I will never own a 2-3 thousand dollar machine.........

Anyone else get a laugh from that?
10½ years ago, when I first started out, during my initial shopping experiences, my thought was, "$125 should be plenty for an espresso machine. After all, all it does is make coffee." My initial order was for just over $800. Today, that $125 original estimate would just cover the replacement burrset for my grinder.

"Never underestimate the level of insanity to which you may rise in the future." -R.G.

I know from experience that the MLG kit is of professional quality, well thought out, all wires cut to the proper length, with excellent instructions. I have no experience with the Auber kit.

superespressoguy wrote:With all the great advice given here it appears my "biggest bang for the buck" is the inexpensive, non-pre infusion PID over the $325. MLG.........yes??

If price if your top concern then the Auber's a good choice. I chose the MLG kit for primarily aesthetic reasons. Jim's kits contain excellent instructions and everything is ready to go for install (no cutting/trimming, etc). The kit can be easily uninstalled to return Silvia to stock. Jim also provides excellent support including post sale and even post warranty. I can't comment on the Auber kits since I have no experience with them but many people have gone with them.

Randy G. wrote:Anyone else get a laugh from that?
10½ years ago, when I first started out, during my initial shopping experiences, my thought was, "$125 should be plenty for an espresso machine. After all, all it does is make coffee." My initial order was for just over $800. Today, that $125 original estimate would just cover the replacement burrset for my grinder.

"Never underestimate the level of insanity to which you may rise in the future." -R.G.

In retrospect, I chuckled as well. Still, remembering my original budget limitations, I was in the same boat. I scored a used V2 Silvia ('03) and SJ for just over $650 and spent the next two years banging my head against the wall. I never would have imagined dropping >$1k for a machine or grinder, and yet life takes funny turns.

I bought the basic Auber PID for ~$150, and have found build quality, instruction and maintenance to be worth the cost. My choice of Auber over MLG was primarily due to aesthetic reasons; I prefer the readout next to the grouphead instead of off to the side of the machine.

takeshi wrote:If price if your top concern then the Auber's a good choice. I chose the MLG kit for primarily aesthetic reasons. Jim's kits contain excellent instructions and everything is ready to go for install (no cutting/trimming, etc). The kit can be easily uninstalled to return Silvia to stock. Jim also provides excellent support including post sale and even post warranty. I can't comment on the Auber kits since I have no experience with them but many people have gone with them.

I installed and used an Auber PID on my Silvia. It also comes with good instructions and precut wire harness. It can also be uninstalled to restore the machine to its original state.

I can't comment on the quality of the PID itself (Watlow vs Auber) but in about 18 months of use, I had no issue whatsoever and never heard of any in forums. I bought the Auber because of price and look on the Silvia (looks almost OEM).

samuellaw178 wrote:Wow. I also never thought that the PID kits cost so much. The PID that I assembled myself costs less than $100 total. With that much amount of money, I wonder isn't it more worth to sell the machine and upgrade into the next hx level.

Important advice.

I've been through:
- el cheapo Phillips "espresso" machine, collecting dust for years
- a trip to Italy
- Silvia (for 6 months)
- Auber PIDed Silvia (for 18 months approximately)
- La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi II (4 months now)

Had I known what I know now (I do love great espresso, I do want to make more than 1-2 milk drinks quickly, I do appreciate consistency, I do like the fact of not having sink shots anymore (except for grinder dial-in), I do understand that an ideal home espresso machine doesn't exist yet and everything is about compromise, I was ready psychologically/financially to invest in a better machine), I would have skipped the PIDed Silvia step and exchanged it for a good HX like a Bezzera BZ07/BZ10.

[EDIT](BZ07PM is sold by Caffe Tech in Edmonton for $1250 ($1350 for the automatic BZ07DE version) or by iDrinkCoffee for $1300 with free shipping ($1550 for the BZ07DE). The BZ10 is the same machine, with the hot water tap moved to a more convenient position. It is sold at the same price ($1250) at Caffe Tech (their list price for the Bezzeras have been cut by $250-300 (!). Note: From experience, iDrinkCoffee service is really slow but ok).

I've sold my Silvia + accessories for 65% of what I paid and I think it was a fair price (especially as everything was almost brand new and very well taken care of).

Please at least don't invest half the price of a Silvia in a PID for it.

Just curious samuellaw178 where you got the PID (electornic themostat) from? Was it just an electronics supplier? What kind of relay did you use for the boiler? Thanks

for what its worth -- I noticed ebay has PIDs for incredibly cheap

As takeshi and Randy said, the MLG PID kits are really well thought out. I am not mechanically or electrically inclined, but I was able to follow Jim's installation instructions with no problems.

The thing that I most appreciate with MLG is the customer service. I have the SD3C on both my Silvia and Alexia, and even 4 years down the road now, Jim continues to answer my questions as I better understand how the set point translates to brew temp and how long it takes my machines to recover from the previous shot. If you have questions or issues, Jim has the time to help.

Louis wrote:Had I known what I know now (I do love great espresso, I do want to make more than 1-2 milk drinks quickly, I do appreciate consistency, I do like the fact of not having sink shots anymore (except for grinder dial-in), I do understand that an ideal home espresso machine doesn't exist yet and everything is about compromise, I was ready psychologically/financially to invest in a better machine), I would have skipped the PIDed Silvia step and exchanged it for a good HX like a Bezzera BZ07/BZ10.

......

Please at least don't invest half the price of a Silvia in a PID for it.

I might be in the minority on this, but I do not see Silvia as just a beginning stepping stone until I could afford a HX or a E-61 machine. I explored two E-61 machines (Alex Duetto/PID Alexia), and I do not see them as upgrades. Rather, having done about a year of side-by-side PID Silvia shots vs. PID Alexia shots, I have figured out there is just a difference in the texture of the shots from the E-61 vs. the texture from Silvia's. And it will just be a matter of opinion what someone prefers. I personally prefer Silvia's textures. Alexia looks sexier than Silvia, but when I am being honest with myself, Silvia is my champ. I find that the taste is clearer on an E-61 (less blond thingies emulsified into the body of the shot), but the texture is denser. And I cannot give up the texture I get at the bottom of the cup on my Silvia shots (lighter airier, almost like a bubbly Belgian quadruple beer in its lacing on the glass - sorry to be so poetic).

One trick to the Silvia is to open up the steam valve for about 1 second before pulling the shot to let out the blast of high pressure that apparently sits on the top of the boiler. When I do this, I don't think my E-61 is really all that more consistent. Again, the resultant textures will just be different and I am strongly starting to believe there must just be a difference in preference.

If I could do it again, I certainly would invest in the MLG PID kit Silvia until I can afford the La Marzocco GS/3 or my current interest, the Shot Brewer. There are also wonderful textures of shots here in San Francisco that come off La Marzocco's I don't think I can achieve with Silvia. The journey continues.

superespressoguy wrote:Any advice?

Watlow SD3C at $330.00 vs Auber PID Retrofit KIT for Rancilio Silvia w/ pre-infusion $234.00.

Just finished my install. I got the Auber PID. You can turn off pre-infusion if you don't like it. Rather have it than "coulda/woulda/shoulda" got it with it. Pics are here and from another user