My experience with the entry level machines is more limited than others, but a general observation I have made over time is as follows.

Beginner espresso machines are not, pro espresso machines are not. By that I mean you need to have near pro skills to use an entry level machine while a beginner can easily pull shots on a pro machine. In my opinion, what you are paying for in a 'high end' espresso machine is the machine's ability to reproduce a shot with ease and consistency. An entry level machine and grinder need constant tweaks and adjustments to reproduce the same shot two times. Simply reading a thread on the Silvia temperature surfing voodoo is enough to frighten even me. In stark comparison the routine on my A3 is blissfully simple and the $8K GS3 even simpler than that. Both entry and pro level machines will produce good shots, but how much work do you want to go through to pull that shot? I want to enjoy espresso making and not have it become a chore.

Ken Fox wrote:even the most cursory view of this site shows that it lists places that are not good, and omits many that are. I would not view this map as anything more than the preferences of the person who produced it. For me, based upon the few areas I am familiar with and the shops that are listed and those that are not -- it would be next to useless.

ken

I'm sure I was too broad in saying that it listed "all of the good espresso shops on a U.S. map." A disclaimer is in order:

EVERY person will not necessarily like EVERY espresso from EVERY barista at EVERY coffee shop listed. Moreover, it's undisputed that one person could not possibly list EVERY good espresso shop or house with a competent home barista. Whew! Thanks for catching that Ken, you're a lifesaver!

That said, http://www.espressomap.com is still better than hiring a blind monkey to throw darts at a map if you traveling to an unfamiliar city. For example, I was in Portland this weekend and found (in addition to others) four Stumptown locations, Ristretto, and Crema Coffee & Bakery (the latter two were recommended by a Stumptown Barista, although I didn't go to either).

Ken - Do you have any constructive suggestions for someone who frequently travels to unfamiliar cities?

stevendouglas wrote:I'm sure I was too broad in saying that it listed "all of the good espresso shops on a U.S. map."

That said, http://www.espressomap.com is still better than hiring a blind monkey to throw darts at a map if you traveling to an unfamiliar city. For example, I was in Portland this weekend and found (in addition to others) four Stumptown locations, Ristretto, and Crema Coffee & Bakery (the latter two were recommended by a Stumptown Barista, although I didn't go to either).

Ken - Do you have any constructive suggestions for someone who frequently travels to unfamiliar cities?

I have heard nothing but positive things about Stumptown and was not referring to them. If I was more specific, I would be pointing out a chain of places in a distant city, that uses really awful coffee. Since I have met and socialized with at least one person from that chain, and I don't want to be rude, I'll be no more specific. Anyone from that town who is into coffee knows that this particular chain sucks. And, just to name a couple of other places, there is no mention of Barry Jarrett's or Bernie Digman's places (in Illinois and New Mexico) and I'd be astonished if they don't merit inclusion. Since both are active online personnas, the maker of that map can't reasonably plead ignorance. If you want a REALLY memorable experience, going to a place like Bernie's or Barry's would probably result in a tour of the roasting facility and some down to earth conversation with the owner. Compared to an anonymous visit to a much heralded marquee cafe, I'd take the Bernie/Barry visit 100% of the time. But then, that is just me.

On my last trip to Vancouver, BC, occasional forum participant Rick Knowlan and I visited several cafes. Our most remarkable and memorable visit, however, was to a cafe and roasting operation I'd never heard of that turns out to produce some really exceptional coffee. The owner was so engaging that we could barely extract ourselves from the facility after more than an hour; he just didn't want to let us get out of there! This is the sort of stuff that memorable out of town visits are made of, much more so (for me) than looking at some map and having a random espresso after waiting in a long line at some much touted cafe (even if good). Rick found the place after reading a post on coffeegeek.

My suggestion would be that when you are contemplating a visit to a distant city, to post a question on one of the internet coffee venues, such as a regional forum on CG, or in the knockbox forum here on HB. You should get very up-to-date recommendations, from the sorts of people who probably pay the most attention, your fellow online forum participants.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:Compared to an anonymous visit to a much heralded marquee cafe, I'd take the Bernie/Barry visit 100% of the time. But then, that is just me.

...looking at some map and having a random espresso after waiting in a long line at some much touted cafe (even if good).

For the record, I've been to three of the "much heralded marquee cafes" listed on the site, and haven't had to wait in a long line. Why do you believe that you have to wait in a long line? Did you have a bad experience once?

I completely agree that there are other places to visit that provide an "espresso vacation" experience. I said as much in my response

stevendouglas wrote:Moreover, it's undisputed that one person could not possibly list EVERY good espresso shop or house with a competent home barista.

I believe it was his intent to list the places he'd been and enjoyed. I, for one, appreciate his effort.

I would certainly prefer to visit Bernie's in NM. I even looked up his place in NM (after his post on another thread) to see if I could get there during a trip to Phoenix or Albuquerque. That sounds like a lot of fun and I'm certain that I would enjoy the experience and meeting Bernie.

However, would you agree that it is possible for another person to like something that you don't or does that make him or her an incompetent fool? It doesn't seem as though you like anything that you don't own, any method that you don't use, or any place that you don't frequent...heck, you don't even like some of the things you own, e.g., Compak grinder.

Ken Fox wrote:On my last trip to Vancouver, BC, occasional forum participant Rick Knowlan and I visited several cafes. Our most remarkable and memorable visit, however, was to a cafe and roasting operation I'd never heard of that turns out to produce some really exceptional coffee.

As someone who finds themselves in Vancouver 2-4x a year, I was wondering if you'd care to name names? ;^)

stevendouglas wrote:
However, would you agree that it is possible for another person to like something that you don't or does that make him or her an incompetent fool? It doesn't seem as though you like anything that you don't own, any method that you don't use, or any place that you don't frequent...heck, you don't even like some of the things you own, e.g., Compak grinder.

silly comments I see no point in responding to

zin1953 wrote:As someone who finds themselves in Vancouver 2-4x a year, I was wondering if you'd care to name names? ;^)

The roaster I refer to is Milano Roasters. They have an adjacent cafe that is unexceptional, but the roaster is gifted. He does roast a wide variety of coffees some of which are cheap and intended for a type of consumer other than you and me, but his high end stuff is very very good. He was trained by several famous Italian roasters, including the guy who started Torrefazione Italia (long since sold out, first to SBC then to Starbucks, and not the same stuff now by a long shot).

Rick Knowlan did a mini blind tasting of espresso shots made from several marquee roasters vs. the blend he bought at Milano. From what he told me, the Milano blew the others out of the water. I was given a sample from Milano that I took home to Idaho and consumed a few days later. I was so taken by the blend that I had a number of emails back and forth with the roaster about it.

I think it is fair to say that based upon what we sampled in the cafe, neither Rick nor I expected anything much from their coffee, but both of us were very impressed when we played around with it on our own equipment.

ken

Ahem...gentlemen, what does all this have to do with superautomatic machines?

I have been noticing this more lately. Maybe I am reading more widely now and have just discovered this(middle aged PMS males in green underwear )? Oh...I know... the bills have come in from Christmas! I feel sorry for the OP who is probably getting emailed every time someone posts here with something out of topic, unless he has given up on us.

I read this spat of messages, and then suddenly remembered that I was reading a thread on super automatics.

Maybe I shouldnt say anything and leave this to the moderators, but it was too good an opportunity to use Kens title!

Anyhow...Please proceed...

He is a she.....Happy.....anyway, I've truly enjoyed the rhetoric. I am learning about godshots, superautomatics and the decisions I need to make.....truly I am enjoying this experience. Thank you for you dialogue. And it's helping me learn about espresso. I may not know all the nuances. But, I can learn. You all are inspiring me to learn as much as possible. I appreciate your help and enthusiasm. All the best. By the way, am I the OP? Anyway, take care.