I have had a long standing Olympia & Pasquini "Conspiracy Theory" and was hoping some of you might be able to help me out... Did these companies ever work together or have any connections... and if so, do they still work together? I ask because of 2 espresso related machines in particular... The Pasquini Mocca Express grinder and the Olympia Coffex Espresso machine (now called the Olympia Maximatic). I happen to own both. I recently got the Olympia Coffex off of craigslist for only $250. I got the Pasquini Mocca Express off ebay for $198.
The Pasquini grinder I have is an older one and not the same as the current model they call the mocca express. It is EXACTLY the same as the grinder Olympia now sells as the current version of their "mocca express" grinder.
Regarding the Olympia Coffex espresso machine (now called the Olympia Maximatic). It seems to be EXACTLY the same as the Pasquini Livietta (now discontinued).
Any ideas on why or how these two companies may have worked together?

I have no experience with the machines or companies you mention. However, I do know that it seems fairly common for espresso equipment to be manufactured by one company, and rebadged for several others.

For instance, Mazzer grinders are also known as Astoria and Rio. They are all three the same, but with different badges on them.





Badges.... we don't need no stinkin' badges......

Brooklynshot wrote:Any ideas on why or how these two companies may have worked together?

Seems to me that Pasquini private labeled the Olympia product for a while. The current Olympia Express, is not the same as the past ownership, but I think that is what your "Conspiracy" is about. Not an uncommon practice in the espresso world, but what I thought I knew was all wrong, so now I just drink Grappa and Wine

The most common Pasquini Products (such as the Livia) are rebadged Bezerras. I believe Bezzera at one time made a lever that looked similar to the current Ponte Veccio Lusso. Olympia also had a model for a while with roughly the same form factor. Don't know how all that fits together though.

I understand that Paquini relabeled the Carrafex as the Livietta, and I think they currently relabel the Bezzera as Livia. The appear to have bought or continue to buy products from various manufacturers that they market under their name. Another example of this type of company is Gensaco, who market Ponte Vecchio, Riviera, and Bezzera products under their name. I think Gaggia has also done this, with the Factory and Mini levers, and some of their commercial machines,

PC

We actually had this conversation on another thread about two weeks ago.

In fact, as many have said in this thread, it is quite common for many manufacturers to release products using several brand names.
For instance.....Cimbali and Faema super-automatics are both identical in internal parts. They are both built in the same facility in Binasco, Italy...the only difference is the body panels.
CMA, one of the largest manufacturers of commercial espresso equipment releases several brands, such as WEGA, Astoria, Formula and CMA.....in most cases the only difference is the body panels.

One thing to note is that Pasquini is not a manufacturer nor an assembly facility...they are importers and distributors. I'm sure they will source the best quality that meets their market design and are also free to outsource to other manufacturers to substitute or replace products. I am personal friends with the Pasquini family since our companies are also the oldest and most well established Cimbali importers for close to 50 years.

Italy, in specific Northern Italy, is quite different from most of the industrialized world in that the manufacturing base is made up of primarily small "mom and pop" manufacturing facilities. This leads to small batch, high quality home manufacturing but prohibits global market penetration through branding and does not source the funds necessary for product development. For this reason, so many small privately branded E-61 clones are available through dozens of small importers in North America. The ease of availability of the E-61 clone group along with the market demand makes the manufacturing of small, simple machines quite profitable for these small "mom and pop' facilities in Piedmont and around Milan.
There is little to no technology development while the importer bears the responsibility of marketing.
I am convinced that brew technology did not cease in 1961 when Faema introduced the E-61 group. While I admire its simplicity, I always prefer shots extracted through the newer groups that Faema (and some other serious manufacturers ie. Cimbali, Marzocco etc) currently implements in their machines.

In conclusion, there was no intended conspiracy........on the level of machines that we are discussing, there is little exclusivity both for the manufacturer and the distributor. As you moves up the food chain, the levels of technological, parts and branding exclusivity increase (albeit, never to the level of a fully "home grown" espresso machine). And, wine and Grappa aside, Terry...I really didn't mean to make you so self conscious......you were correct in everything you said except that Cimbali doesn't make its own burrs. Your explanation concerning the multiple levels of sourcing for all types of parts by every equipment manufacturer was on point.


For the sole reason of product development and research, it becomes evident to me that the Cimbali M-21 Junior and the upcoming GS3 are truly models out of comparison with the plethora of E-61 clones that dominate unit sales numbers on this level of investment.

Pasquini is an importer of Italian Espresso products since 1956. They decided to private label their own espresso machine and grinder sometime back in the ~80s. They decided to go with what was viewed at the time as the best manufacturer of home espresso equipment--Olympia. They went with, what we know as, the Olympia Moca Grinder and the Olympia Maximatic and rebadged them as the Pasquini Moka and Pasquini Livietta. In the ~90s when Olympia went out of business, Pasquini had to find a new manufacturer for its products. Pasquini went with the Bezzera BZ99 (I believe) and rebadged it the Livia 90 and went with the Anfim Haus Grinder and rebadged it the Moka. Bezzera designed and built the first espresso machine (steam powered) and continues to build award winning machines in Italy. Anfim is mostly recognised in Europe but builds parts for many brands including Mazzer; as well as private labels grinders for many companies (including Pasquini). The Haus is Anfim's bottom of the line grinder.

Olympia has been in financial trouble almost its entire existence. The reason for this may seem strange. It is because of quality. Manufacturers of espresso equipment make most of their profit off of replacement parts for repair and maintenance. Olympia espresso machines are built so well that one may not need any parts or maintenance for 20-30 years or more. Even then, that would be for some inexpensive seals not the more expensive internal parts. They are currently in very bad financial trouble. This is why production is down from 160 units per year to ~40. They really need our help to inform the espresso community that there is a very good reason as to the price of their machines. In the long run it will pay off to spend a little more up front. In fact I really believe that all of the exposure around the older used machines will really help Olympia because more people will be purchasing the older machines and restoring them. This will require alot of those replacement parts that they have not been able to sell in the past. The resurrection of all of these older machines may just be the resurrection of Olympia as a company. Companies like Olympia are a really rare gem. I would really hate to see them not make it.


Best wishes,
Lance

Sorry if this post is somewhat OT, but I just had to say it...

terryz wrote:Seems to me that Pasquini private labeled the Olympia product for a while. The current Olympia Express, is not the same as the past ownership, but I think that is what your "Conspiracy" is about. Not an uncommon practice in the espresso world, but what I thought I knew was all wrong, so now I just drink Grappa and Wine

Drinking Grappa and Wine is not a bad thing per se ... especially not when it's good and when it's Italian...

T.J. wrote:For the sole reason of product development and research, it becomes evident to me that the Cimbali M-21 Junior and the upcoming GS3 are truly models out of comparison with the plethora of E-61 clones that dominate unit sales numbers on this level of investment.

Is that a good thing or a bad one? "Out of comparison" in which sense? And can the M21 (unmodified) and the GS3 really be named in one breath with regards to espresso quality? Is - again in that sense - a M21 really superior to all these E61 clones? Can we really generalize to such an extent?

Of course you are right that brew technology did not cease in 1961 when Faema introduced the E-61 group, but what was the main goal of the large groups like Cimbali since? Was their main concern about quality (in the cup) or about quantity (e.g. being able to serve more and more espresso (sic.) in less time and with less human effort) and market-shares and profits?

I consider myself very "italophil" and we are quite frequently in Italy - especially the north-east - but recently we have taken up travelling with my Pavoni lever machine (the quality of which has, btw., significantly decreased since Saeco bought the company) and the small Grinder. When we visit a bar we drink a glass of wine or prosecco instead of an espresso and in restaurants the quasi-obligatory 'Cafe' which finishes a usually superb meal is seldom a pleasure anymore.

Why? Because the espressi served in most bars and restaurants are usually mediocre at best. More often burnt than not and from a machine which has evidently not had a backflush and a good cleaning for quite a while. And very often these machines are Cimbalis - or Faemas. Luckily the Lavazza, Illy or - even worse - the Segafredo is not as ubiquitous as one might think, so that the small torrefazioni artigianali - another example of what you seem to call (somewhat condescendingly as it appears) "mom and pop" manufacturing facilities - can bring in at least a little quality.

What I find curious is that the really superb espressi I got within the last year all stemmed from machines you probably would consider (again somewhat condescendingly, IMHO) made by small garage manufacturer's in Northern Italy (though I'm not sure which companies exactly you may have had in mind with that term... LSM, Elektra, LaScala, Macap, Mazzer maybe?) and that the absolutely worst espresso was from a Cimbali distributor (whom I had visited destined to buy a Junior DT1, a deal which I eventually refrained from and decided to stick for the time being with my "garage-made" E61 clone).

I also remember some fairly good ones like those in Livio Felluga's small osteria in Brazzano (from an E61 Legend) or at a beach somewhere in Sicilia (from a Wega) and some from a friend who has a small roastery here (a Faema E92 Elite), but none could even remotely compare to the ones I make at home (but of course de gustibus non est disputandum)

To sum it up and to get to my point: I think that large companies - like Cimbali - in their chase of marketing figures and shareholder values (or whatever) seldom pursue excellence in the cup anymore. It is quantity they are after, not quality or - to be more precise - quality only insofar as it is necessary to increase profits. And thus, IMHO, these companies will hardly be the first choice for the home aficionado, who is in search of a machine which will aid him in pursuing his own goal: the best possible espresso given his own limitations.

I have had the same thoughts re: Olympia, and other manufacturers of quality espresso makers, particularly lever machines. Once a customer has bought one, there is little profit left to be made. And honestly, not that many people want to spend $500, let alone $2000 on an espresso maker. We in the espresso world probably lose perspective as to what most people drink for their morning beverage - at best Starbucks, at worst.....!!!. This is reflected by the fact that home-brewed espresso is very often better than cafe espresso.

A recent visit to Seattle brought this home to me. Although I know Seattle has a high per-capita rate of great baristas, the best espresso I had there, up until my last day when I stopped at Cafe D'Arte, was a Starbucks from a fully automatic, no-portafilter type machine. Sadly, it sounds like the same may sometimes hold true in Italy. If consumers are not demanding, there is little incentive to maintain high quality. It's tempting to think that quality was better on the old lever machines, but I've had a lot of bad shots from commercial levers, so I suspect it's the barista. Hence, the love of home-brew, because with a little practice one can create great espresso exactly to taste.

Is there hope for companies like Olympia? I certainly hope so, but they may need to consider a model that can somehow be more competitively priced. When I bought a lever, I opted for new, but went with a Ponte Vecchio, another small company with quality components, albeit less attention to perfection. Even at $500, it would be difficult for me to find anyone among my acquaintances who would purchase one.

PC