Water. wrote:To sum it up and to get to my point: I think that large companies - like Cimbali - in their chase of marketing figures and shareholder values (or whatever) seldom pursue excellence in the cup anymore. It is quantity they are after, not quality or - to be more precise - quality only insofar as it is necessary to increase profits. And thus, IMHO, these companies will hardly be the first choice for the home aficionado, who is in search of a machine which will aid him in pursuing his own goal: the best possible espresso given his own limitations.

Walter,

You seem to have entered the conversation concerning market share, production and quality in the cup concerning the Cimbali group a little late. Although I don't want to again bore everyone with the specifics, details and test results of the Cimbali/Faema machine against other brands, I thought it appropriate to respond to your comments concerning market share and quality.

As I have said on several occasions, I do not...DO NOT!!!!!! equate sales results with quality.

The Cimbali brand, name and reputation are based on a gentle balance of high quality throughout a global market penetration.
On repeated occasions, the (unmodified) Cimbali brew group has performed well in comparison to any other brew group in the market.
At the Minneapolis SCAA convention we entered an unmodified Cimbali 2 group in a barista equipment competition (thermostabilization was a factor) against several other brands (including a Dave Schomer MODIFIED Linea) and won the competition.
You make a criticism of an entire line of thinking and manufacturing without citing one fact other than your personal preference. I have gone through great lengths in previous threads to open a discussion which expands beyond the simple line of reasoning which you employ in your post. I have worked to open the conversation which depicts market realities, tested facts using the scientific method (supported in many cases by the highly enlightened contributors to this site) and simple taste preferences. Your argument is that Cimbali, Faema and several other brands of machine are bad simply because a lot are sold and that you don't like the taste of coffee in Northern Italian bars. Well, now I'm glad you have shed some light.....I thought I was crazy.....

I do honestly believe, however; that the Cimbali Junior (which tested comparably against a two group Linea) and the Marzocco GS3 are at the top of their class for both an HX machine and a dual boiler machine. I have tested them both and have intimate experience with the M-21 Junior reliability and quality having sold this machine for close to 35 years. I do not consider the cloned E-61 group to be relevant any more in discussions concerning brew quality and innovation at the high end of the market. The E-61 clone has its place and that place is well deserved.

The term "mom and pop" referring to Northern Italy's small manufacturing facilities was used in a NYT article less than 3 months ago (I suggest you Lexus Nexus the article to familiarize yourself with the statistics on manufacturing demographics of Northern Italy). I did not use this term condescendingly as it is an oft used business term to describe size different businesses all over the world.

Anyone who would believe that the vast majority of coffees are not roasted by small regional roasteries is not familiar with the landscape of the Italian foodservice scene. Lavazza, Illy and Segafredo account for less than 10% of the total coffee consumed in coffee bars and restaurants......however; this was not even part of my post....why you mention it is somewhat bewildering to me.

And finally, it seems to me that if you travel Italy on a regular basis and can't find a decent espresso, you are going to the wrong bars.

T.J. wrote:I do honestly believe, however; that the Cimbali Junior (which tested comparably against a two group Linea) and the Marzocco GS3 are at the top of their class for both an HX machine and a dual boiler machine.

Of the Buyer's Guides on this site that I authored, none was more thoroughly researched than that for the Cimbali Junior. It is the only one to get an unqualified "10.0" for its Materials & Workmanship score to-date. But Junior took it on the chin for its forgiveness, referred to as the Morning After performance score (so named because it attempts to quantify what a home barista should expect in the early days of ownership). In contrast, what impressed me most about the GS3 was its forgiving nature, especially for a La Marzocco, which in my experience demands more operator skill than a typical E61.

I cannot say how favorably the Cimbali Junior and GS3 would compare if operated by highly skilled baristas in a veritable pro's one-on-one espresso shootout. But I give heavy consideration to how easily an espresso machine is mastered because many home baristas simply don't have the time or motivation of a dedicated professional. To wit, I wondered if the delay timer modification that Ken applied to his Junior and documented in How to Preinfuse; Extraction Pressure Redux would put the two on more equal footing in your average kitchen. Has Cimbali considered such a modification to enhance its preinfusion and presumably increase Junior's forgiveness factor?

D.J.,

I admit I have entered the discussion late, mostly because I refrained from replying to your posts in the burr thread since I thought you would hear only what you want to hear. And also because I had - and still have - the impression you come here to tell rather than to listen...

T.J. wrote: As I have said on several occasions, I do not...DO NOT!!!!!! equate sales results with quality.

Die Botschaft hort ich wohl, allein mir fehlt's am Glauben ('I hear the message well, but...' Goethe, Faustus)

Your language, T.J., comes across as that of a businessman trying to sell something to another businessman. It is not that of an espresso-aficionado. There's nothing bad with that per se, but since most members - even though they may be businessmen too - come here because of their passion - espresso - and enthusiasm for this passion comes through pretty much every post here, you find yourself repeatedly confronted with the "quantity over quality" line of criticism.

You make a criticism of an entire line of thinking and manufacturing without citing one fact other than your personal preference. I have gone through great lengths in previous threads to open a discussion which expands beyond the simple line of reasoning which you employ in your post. I have worked to open the conversation which depicts market realities, tested facts using the scientific method (supported in many cases by the highly enlightened contributors to this site) and simple taste preferences. Your argument is that Cimbali, Faema and several other brands of machine are bad simply because a lot are sold and that you don't like the taste of coffee in Northern Italian bars. Well, now I'm glad you have shed some light.....I thought I was crazy.....

Indeed, my line of reasoning is simple, but it isn't that simple...

On the one hand I've been trying to point out that it takes more than a good machine to make superb espresso and that Italy is no longer the "promised land" regarding espresso-quality. Cimbali and Faema are not bad, but the fact that it comes out of a Cimbali or a Faema, doesn't make an espresso good either.

On the other hand I've been hinting about the fact that really excellent espresso doesn't necessarily need hi-tec equipment, as many home users e.g. with really simple small lever machines can prove and that scientific methods used e.g. to guarantee a 0.1°C thermal stability in 100 subsequent shots (yes I'm deliberately exaggerating here) are of little interest for the home aficionado who prepares seldomly more than a dozen espressi in a row. But real preinfusion - a concept which is alien to the Juniors - might be of greater interest for this clientel (as Ken Fox and Jim Schulman have maintained so well on more than one occasion). Also the potential to run the rotary version out of a gallon without having to use an extra pump (since the M32 seldom fits under standard kitchen cabinets and is a little more expensive).

And your point that cloned E-61 groups are not 'relevant any more in discussions concerning brew quality' might be debatable.

Furthermore you seem to have a somewhat ambiguous relationship to Marzocco and the GS3. You've been going great lengths in the other thread to point out how inferior Marzocco is compared with Cimbali and yet you repeatedly name the GS3 in one breath with the Junior S1/DT1. Though some might say that 'both have one group and make espresso and here the resemblance ceases'. But it appears that Marzocco seems ready and willing to lend an ear to the home-aficionados whereas Cimbali seems to maintain that home-aficionados simply have to confide in them, somewhere some modifications will be made and all will be well.

And finally, it seems to me that if you travel Italy on a regular basis and can't find a decent espresso, you are going to the wrong bars.

I didn't say 'decent' I said 'superb'. But I'm open for suggestions and directions, especially in the rural area or the piccoli paesi of the North-east...

Cheers

Walter,

I accept your response since it is entirely in the spirit of this debate that you responded.

My relationship to La Marzocco is quite extensive......both personal and emotional in a very positive way. I have yet to remember where I criticized La Marzocco technology as it is entirely out of character for me to do so since my best friend is a principle in their company in Toscana.

I feel the GS3 is quite a nice piece of equipment and does have a market.

I wholeheartedly believe that the best current HX machine is the Cimbali Junior at the high end of the "Home Barista" market. I wholeheartedly feel that the GS3 may indeed take top honors in the same market for dual boiler technology...of course my hopes and wishes are that the GS3 is wildly popular because my best friend is behind its production. I do, however, work hard to keep my professional opinion separate from my emotional opinion in order to keep the conversation based on fact.

Now..........my credentials as an aficionado have been called into question. Let me say this......I find very few things in this world to be more satisfying than a properly extracted shot of high quality espresso (I prefer my beans blended and not single varietal).
I have three espresso machines at my house along with six professional machines at my office all set to different temps for use with different coffees. Because I can, I have grinders dedicated to different beans.

When used properly, a well built lever machine produces better espresso than any rotary HX or dual boiler machine. This is my opinion......I have a lever La Cimbali MicroCimbali at home that I rely on for my own use when really in need of a fix. Obviously, this is the least expensive way to produce espresso, but in the hands of an artist it is the best.

Unfortunately, so very few people know how to properly use one.

Now...I will close by saying this.

(1) The fact that La Cimbali sells the most machines in the world doesn't mean that La Cimbali machines suck.
That is pure counter culture hogwash. I used to think like that when I was 16 years old. I also thought I knew everything when I was 16 years old.
(2) Simply because I am a business professional in this industry does not preclude me from being both knowledgeable and passionate about espresso. Most people in this business find me to be quite passionate and sometimes a bit crazy about the "real" espresso coffee.

Walter, you make generalizations about people and things that seem almost dictatorial. Don't prejudge anyone until you know more about them.

T.J. wrote:When used properly, a well built lever machine produces better espresso than any rotary HX or dual boiler machine. This is my opinion......I have a lever La Cimbali MicroCimbali at home that I rely on for my own use when really in need of a fix. Obviously, this is the least expensive way to produce espresso, but in the hands of an artist it is the best.

Unfortunately, so very few people know how to properly use one.

Thanks for that! Many of us would-be artists over on the "Lever" forum share that opinion with you.

Appreciating the insights both you and Walter are providing and hoping the interpersonal stuff doesn't spoil the exchange.

T.J. wrote:Walter,

I have yet to remember where I criticized La Marzocco technology as it is entirely out of character for me to do so since my best friend is a principle in their company in Toscana.

T.J.,

I did not say you have criticized Marzocco technology, I said you have been trying "to point out how inferior Marzocco is compared with Cimbali" and I was referring to remarks like this one in the other thread:

Truth be told, almost 80% of machines manufactured by LM are shipped to the US. This accounts for just a few hundred units in total. Without getting into specifics, the Cimbali group sells easily three times as many in the same market.

----

T.J. wrote:I wholeheartedly believe that the best current HX machine is the Cimbali Junior at the high end of the "Home Barista" market.

I entirely agree with you on this regarding materials and workmanship - and even a few more parameters like boiler-size, etc. - I consider the Junior to be "state of technology", maybe even "state of the art" in the "Home-Barista" section. But can the same be said about its brew-quality in a low-volume environment? Dan's review didn't give me that impression, neither did it my - limited, though - personal experience with espressi from Juniors. Furthermore, as I said already in my previous post, the lack of real preinfusion and the requirement of line-pressure to fill the boiler pretty much disqualifies it for me personally.

T.J. wrote:Now..........my credentials as an aficionado have been called into question...

No, I didn't mean to do that, I'm sorry if it came across that way...

What I meant to point out is that your language as well as the contents of your posts always show your familiarity with Espresso as a business-professional, but only seldom show your passion for Espresso (like the remarks above about lever machines just did). If you find the time to browse some through the "Levers and SO coffee"-thread and "digest" Karl's tasting notes you will notice the incredible amount of passion some of us have for this topic (though, considering your position regarding SOs and coffee-freshness you will probably not agree with him).

T.J. wrote:Walter, you make generalizations about people and things that seem almost dictatorial. Don't prejudge anyone until you know more about them.

The funny thing is, the same thought about you crossed my mind more than once, but I refrained from mentioning it. But the fact that I see things differently than you do, doesn't necessarily mean I am judgemental or that I hold some sort of grudge against you or Cimbali. I do believe that some controversial discussion can - and should - be held here without establishing personal animosities...

Cheers

Walter wrote:...the lack of real preinfusion and the requirement of line-pressure to fill the boiler pretty much disqualifies it for me personally.

If you're referring to the Cimbali Junior, the latter point isn't correct. The boiler is filled by the pump. Technically you can run Junior without line pressure using a check valve because its Procon pump is spec'd to allow for negative pressure (up to six feet vertical lift). I don't have an owner's manual to check, but that configuration may be against Cimbali's recommendations though.

HB,

You are most certainly correct in your pump specs for the Cimbali Junior DT/1.

This is not highly recommended usage, but we have hundreds working in this way and the operation has been smooth.

The Cimbali does not require line pressure.

This is strange. At a German BBS some owners as well as our local Cimbali representative told me, it would not be possible with the Junior DT1. About a year ago this was one of the main reasons I did not buy it (preinfusion was not a major issue for me, back then)...

Hello Tracy,
I came across your post because I was about to start looking for possible parts for an old Pasquini Livietta that I also bought on eBay very cheap but has been collecting dust on my workbench. When I first bought the Livietta I thought I recognized the design as an older Maximatic by Olympia. I emailed Olympia (a few years back I had established a link with one of the Olympia managers when I bought parts to recondition my Cremina) and they confirmed they had manufactured the Livietta. Perhaps you can find more from them directly. By the way, did you find parts for your Livietta directly in the US?
Thank you
Enrique