This is not a review, rather I will post my impressions of, pros, cons, ergonometric issues, questions, etc. for the Profitec 700. I am an engineer so some of my notes are rather nit-picky. Feel free to agree or disagree, we all see the world differently.

I will start with the pros as they are easy and fairly standard, and over the next days or weeks(?) add other sections of my notes. These are my personal notes, yours might vary, and yes, I am a newbie to this board. However I have brewed espresso for 10+ years on my own and my friends machines, so I have at least some perspective from which to make these notes. Again, this is not a review and is not comprehensive or exhaustive. For instance I don't bother measuring brew recovery times and temperatures of repeated pulls because that is not an issue for me personally with home use. I putz around a lot between cups so the unit has plenty of time to recover. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just sharing my own findings. If you have any questions ask and I will answer as best I can.

Unit: Profitec 700
Vendor: Whole Latte Love

Things I Like (Quite Subjective):

1. The machine is forgiving and very easy to dial in. Espresso tastes subjectively better than other machines I've had. No one in my family goes to Starbucks any more, they just want me to make their coffee. It's about as good as other prosumer machines. It extracts lots of coffee oils. It makes lots of Crema. Easy to get a 25 second pull at 1.5 oz unless I'm just changing coffees of course. Works best with fresh-ground custom-grind coffees. It is harder to dial in some preground coffees, like Lavazza Decaf. Note, I have a good grinder which also helps in dialing in.

2. Plenty of hot water, and lots of steam available. I have hot run notably short in a family of 6 though I admit I take my time between pulls. Steam wand has 4 holes, is easy to manipulate, and stays where you put it. Pretty easy and fast to froth milk. Steam lasts through a whole frothing. Steam recharge is a bit slower than I like, but I'd like instantaneous.

3. The engineering, materials quality, and build quality seem overall very good. I honestly think it will outlive me as a hand-me-down to my children. Not much plastic or aluminium on the inside of this machine. The only real engineering concern I have is descaling, and that is discussed later.

4. It came with flexible metal hosing for plumbing input, and the materials you need for the drain also, the drip tray has a predrilled hole (initially plugged), but not the actual plastic tubing you'd use to connect to the drain.

5. Some of my previous espresso machines rusted in back of or underneath of the drip tray. I don't think that will happen here. Those metal parts are covered with a plastic coating (WLL clarified what it was) to block moisture. Also the drip tray slides smoothly on SS rails. The drip tray itself is double-walled on the side so you don't scald yourself when emptying it. The drip tray surface is laser-cut squares and pleases the eye.

6. It's nice to not have to mechanically adjust the brew group or the cup deck height with levers or dials. The solution to have a smaller grid to bring cups closer to the portafilter is great. Maybe not as snazzy looking, but non-mechanical solutions can't break. I just wish there were 2 smaller grids so that I could raise the ENTIRE deck height.

7. Fits tall cups, much nicer than my starter system, a Gaggia, and some other systems I've used. Large, wide cups can be a problem if they block the E61 group lever.

8. I don't have a SCACEII but the pump pressure reads 9.5 on a shot and 10.0 on a backflush. WLL confirms this is correct to the dot.

9. Cupholder heats very well. It's relatively large. It has side rails to hold cups in, not just a lip. The passive heats almost as well as an active cupholder. It would be nice if the cupholder was on rails (as is the drip tray) so you didn't have to lift all your cups when you need to refill the water tank. You currently need to lift the tray over the lip of the water reservoir and then slide it. I use it to keep my spare portafilters and baskets warm and ready for use.

10. Some espresso maker manuals say to plug the unit into a surge protector. There was no instruction about that from Profitec or WLL. When asked, WLL says they recommend protection for any semi- or super-automatic. Duh.

11. This is a typical dual-boiler machine in that the hot-water wand draws water from the boiler. I am pulling out about a pint or two of water a day at shutdown to reduce calcium concentration levels and hopefully reduce scaling down the road.

12. Last week I got an A2 ERROR (boiler overtemp or electrical short) but it went away after a power reset. I'm glad the system can reset itself easily. I suspect I got an air pocket.

13. The machine has a cool, shiny look. I think it's ageless. I hope it's ageless because I plan to keep it forever.

14. I've gotten used to the steam and hot water knobs and I like them, though I've seen some question them. They are spring loaded so you open up the valve a turn or two until something comes through. Then you close it about a quarter or half a turn. Then only half a turn to open it. That's all. At the end of the day I close them down. This kind of valve control is designed to reduce wear and is top end.

15. I like being able to adjust temperatures in the PID. I am a metric person, we are a metric family for that matter, so I am glad one can also switch the system to degrees C.

16. The unit weighs about 30-35 kilos, more with water in it. I put this in not because it matters to me but because I have seen some users that appear very proud of how much their units weigh. To me it's a wash: Advantage: it doesn't shift on the counter. Disadvantage: it is very difficult to move if you need to.

More later. Would like to hear from the Profitec 700 community. Let me know what you like about your Profitec 700.

mbrown205 wrote:Would like to hear from the Profitec 700 community. Let me know what you like about your Profitec 700.

I recently got one too so here's a link to my first impressions and another about plumbing the unit it.

It's now been a couple of months of continuous usage and I have very little to complain about. I'm all set now, with the unit plumbed in and a small leak at the pump intake fixed by my vendor. I'm still running with the default temperatures & parameters on the PID and slowly learning to pull shots by brew ratio. In the past weeks I managed to learn how to properly texture milk and the process is now fast and easy. I understand the benefits of the spring-loaded valves but I can't help but think that joysticks (as on the QM/Lucca M58) or levers would be much easier to use.

I find myself using the machine more and more, to the point where my caffeine intake is being a bit worrying. I constantly offer people coffee to have an excuse to use the machine more. I think that's telling as my past experiences with espresso were more like a chore in comparison.

I find myself using the machine more and more, to the point where my caffeine intake is being a bit worrying. I constantly offer people coffee to have an excuse to use the machine more

Ditto. I am making a lot more espresso than I used to. Way more. I think this is more of a trend for me because this unit is so friendly to use, rather than excitement over new equipment. I agree that crema is copious on this unit, but there is still an art to the espresso strength, etc. I weigh the coffee I put in each shot (thanks to my Baratza-AP), time the shot (thanks to the 700's shot timer), and measure the output in half-ounces. I would use metric but since you want exactly 1.5 ounces in a shot the ounces is easier. I wish there was a flowmeter in the group head. Maybe that can be the next great invention. I can clearly correlate the effect of each factor in the shot I'm drinking, but IMO it is more than science, there is an art to getting it all together for the shot you are now pulling.

Also, we had to purchase some Decaf to cut down on all the caffeine. 4-6 shots of espresso just in an evening will keep you awake.

I agree also with your first impressions, that was a good post.

I'll post more later.

Great information guys in these as well as the links to previous posts.
I am so close to pulling the trigger on the 700.
I definitely will be plumbing in as well and have read the details of those posts and have a Chris Coffee purchase list assembled. Will need the regulator (my house water pressure is HIGH!). Also going to add the leak detector just because I'm paranoid.

mbrown205 wrote:I wish there was a flowmeter in the group head.

Funny. This is something I've been thinking about. I've been eyeballing where in the 700 piping I would add the flowmeter. Probably in the boiler feedpipe just after the expansion valve. I'd add the Gicar flowmeter that gives a pulse output that is used on other machines. Then would purchase a digital readout flowmeter that takes a pulse input. Adjust the flowrate/pulse parameters. Should work. I'm getting way ahead of myself. Don't even have the damn machine yet. Yeah, I'm an engr also.

I'm not looking at the schematic right now, but wouldn't placing the flowmeter in the boiler feedpipe just measure the water going into the boiler? My 700 seems to batch water inputs. In other words, if I draw 1 cl of water from the tank, the pump might or might not kick in to replenish it. Putting the flowmeter on the boiler output has a similar problem in that there is a constant water flow through the output to the E61 group and back through the return, I think. Wouldn't want to measure that. At least I think that's how the E61 is warmed.

I've a dream of putting a flowmeter on the portafilter itself somehow, but it's stayed just that, a dream. Ideally they'd build it right into the E61.

Please educate me if I'm off base. I'm new, and I'm on this forum to learn.

Mack

Ergonometric/ease-of-use opportunities for the Profitec 700:

(I hope Profitec reads this for the next iteration of the Profitec 700 machine)
(These are just my own observations and opinions. Your mileage may vary)

a. The pump and boiler pressure gauges are down low. This means they are blocked from view by cups, wands, and hands. In fact I have to stoop over and twist my neck to see the pump pressure gauge when I make espresso. To me this is a significant issue. I can work around it, but moving the gauges about 6+" up would help a lot. I will send WLL a video showing how restricted the view is, even without any hands in the way.

b. Would be nice if the 2 pressure gauges were backlit. There are watts to spare, so I don't see why they weren't already. It would be useful and look cool. Also, if they have to stay down low, selecting gauges viewable from a higher angle would be nice. Or tilting them might work. I have to hunch down to see the needles.

c. This machine was obviously designed primarily to run plumbed. But I would really like a low water warning for the reservoir. If one runs on the reservoir (I am until I can get plumbing done), either I have to check the water level or risk running out of water during a shot. It's annoying to move the cupholder all the time to peek in. For the cost of an additional reed switch and LED light that irritation could be avoided. And should be at the prosumer level. For me this is becoming a major issue.

d. It seems odd that there is one switch that controls power and a separate switch, very inconveniently placed behind the drip tray, to turn the steam boiler on/off. Use of the PID to do similar things is possible but inconvenient. And I don't want my family changing the PID, too easy to make a mistake. They might easily select F.02 = 5 and I'd have a disaster. As an engineer, I would prefer to see a 4-position switch (Off/Boiler Only/Steam Only/Both) replace the power switch. Have those input into the PID. Easy to use. Again cost would be minimal.

e. Many I have met online that use a reservoir system either (1.) has a softener installed that's provided by the manufacturer, or (2.) Spends a lot of money, cumulatively, on Reverse Osmosis water, or equivalent, which they mix with tap water to bring down the level of dissolved solids, or (3.) installs expensive softening systems under the counter, all to avoid limescale buildup This shows how important people view descaling or avoiding scale.

i. So: why can't this problem be engineered/fixed at a reasonable cost? Drain plugs and an override fill switch for the boiler would be a good start. Or top-side boiler access.
ii. Or, why can't the system be descalable? The manual recommends descaling but my vendor, WLL says that descaling is not possible in the USA because there is no descaling compound in the USA that is compatible with the Profitec 700. Really? Import one. Tell me what the recommended (but unavailable) compound is and I'll order it from Europe. And why wouldn't you tell me about that before the purchase so I could include it in my decision-making?
iii. Why don't WLL and Profitec find an answer other than "send it in for technicians to descale in 5-8 years." For the record, WLL states that if I do not descale as they request I not, it won't affect my warranty, but the warranty is only for a couple of years. Scale won't have built up by then. I want the machine to last me the rest of my life. It's built to last.

f. I would like to set my system PID to metric (Celsius). However I then lose some precision, because, very approximately, 1C is about 2F. Request a firmware update so we can program in 0.5C steps (just like my automobile). Anyone, Let me know if this is already possible.


All, I would be interested in your feedback on the 700.

You're right on many of those notes although it's surprising how far some of the suggested improvement would push costs up I guess.

mbrown205 wrote: a. The pump and boiler pressure gauges are down low.

You're right but at the same time there is very little interest in looking at the gauges when routinely using the machine IMO.

b. Would be nice if the 2 pressure gauges were backlit.

Again, yeah they could be but I find myself checking the gauges only when doing adjustments or looking if the machine is ready. Too much LEDs / Barista lights would impact on the aesthetics as well, and if you want them on/off you have to place a new switch somewhere.

c. This machine was obviously designed primarily to run plumbed. But I would really like a low water warning for the reservoir. If one runs on the reservoir (I am until I can get plumbing done), either I have to check the water level or risk running out of water during a shot. It's annoying to move the cupholder all the time to peek in. For the cost of an additional reed switch and LED light that irritation could be avoided. And should be at the prosumer level. For me this is becoming a major issue.

You're right on this one -- I did have the machine just stop in the middle of a shot. That was a bit frustrating, and a single "low water" LED (or other indicator) could be very handy.

That being said, as you figured, running plumbed completely fixes this annoying issue

d. It seems odd that there is one switch that controls power and a separate switch, very inconveniently placed behind the drip tray, to turn the steam boiler on/off.

Indeed there could just be two power switches on the front. But supposing there were two, plus a switch for the barista lights, now you have a front panel with 3 switches, two lamps, one low water LED, as well as the gauges and PID controler. This will get cluttered very fast.

Yet I agree that I'd probably not turn the steam boiler on most mornings knowing that I will just get a quick shot before going to work if the switch was more accessible.

Regarding scale... I think it's a relatively simple procedure to descale the machine. There are tons of video online. One of the dangers is using too concentrated a solution that could lead to ablation of material from the innards of the machine. But the Pro 700 is particularly resistant due to the stainless steel boilers so it would be even less of a problem than for other machines. WLL just covering their behind I think.

f. I would like to set my system PID to metric (Celsius). However I then loose some precision, because, very approximately, 1C is about 2F. Request a firmware update so we can program in 0.5C steps (just like my automobile). Anyone, Let me know if this is already possible.

The same here but the problem is the particular controller employed -- with only 3 digits displayed, how would you display a steam boiler temp of 104.5 degrees C? I decided to use degrees F simply because they're handy for displaying and a bit more precise. On other machines (e.g. La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II) you can set temperature for the brew boiler at 92 C to 98 C with 1C jumps and that's it.

I for one would have liked the machine to include an inline pressure regulator inside. It would have bean easy and cheap to include one at the manufacture level without raising costs; but they're expensive, hard to find and a pain to install and adjust outside the machine. Yet the machine is spec'ed to use 2 bar intake pressure or less, which is way below normal line pressure, at least in North America but I'd guess pretty much everywhere in the world. Do people need to install pressure regulators before plumbing in their water/ice-dispensing fridge? I don't think so...

You're right but at the same time there is very little interest in looking at the gauges when routinely using the machine IMO.

I guess it depends how you operate. I like to keep an eye on the steam boiler pressure when steaming, to know how much time I have left. I sometimes steam large pots of milk and the pressure can run down, especially if it wasn't up at 1.5 bar to begin with. It's also fun to watch it run down when you use the hot water spout to fill up a teapot.

Also I check the pressure when I make a shot. If it doesn't pop up to 9.5 or 10 that tells me I didn't grind fine enough or tamp hard enough, so I abort then and there without even looking at how fast the shot pours. But that's just me.

On the lighted gauges, I was actually thinking a really big illuminated dimmer dial would be better (just kidding). More realistically a PID setting. They have some unused programmable parameters they can use. Once you set the light intensity, I can't imagine you'd want to change it frequently.

Indeed there could just be two power switches on the front. But supposing there were two, plus a switch for the barista lights, now you have a front panel with 3 switches, two lamps, one low water LED, as well as the gauges and PID controler. This will get cluttered very fast.

Why have 2 power switches when you can replace the existing binary power switch with a 4 way toggle switch that would look identical? I checked, they exist, and aren't really that expensive.
Not sure what you mean by the '2 lamps'? I was not imagining external lamps over the gauges, rather just backlit gauges (like analog speedometer).
For the low water LED, as long as we're dreaming, why not just have the PID blink either the existing green or red light instead of a new LED. Or alternate both if it really, really wants to get our attention. (smile)
I think properly engineered (that's Profitec's job, not mine) this could be done with no additional clutter or loss of aesthetics.
I don't want to loose the shiny metal feel either.
While we're dreaming, why not ask for a slightly wider PID so we can get fractional degrees c.

Now if Profitec would only hire us onto their design team, eh?

I agree with you about the scale. I'm just spouting off because I just find it offensive that WLL contradicts Profitec and provides no alternative than 'wait for it to scale up', and they didn't let me know this before I purchased. Grrrr. Imagine you bought a new car and were told you couldn't roll the windows down, but only told that after you bought the car. That's how I feel. Oh well, I'll get over it eventually.

mbrown205 wrote:I'm not looking at the schematic right now, but wouldn't placing the flowmeter in the boiler feedpipe just measure the water going into the boiler? My 700 seems to batch water inputs. In other words, if I draw 1 cl of water from the tank, the pump might or might not kick in to replenish it. Putting the flowmeter on the boiler output has a similar problem in that there is a constant water flow through the output to the E61 group and back through the return, I think. Wouldn't want to measure that. At least I think that's how the E61 is warmed.

I've a dream of putting a flowmeter on the portafilter itself somehow, but it's stayed just that, a dream. Ideally they'd build it right into the E61.

Please educate me if I'm off base. I'm new, and I'm on this forum to learn.

Mack

LOL...I'm learning also!
Would you be thinking of the steam boiler? The hot water draws from the bottom of the steam boiler. The water feed to that is triggered by the level control probe.
The brewing boiler is always 100% full, so water in/water out. So when pulling a shot, the pump is activated to push water into the brew boiler at the same rate the shot is pulling it out, since in-compressible fluid. I think that is how some of the volumetric based machines function...not 100% on that though.
That being said, I'm only be willing to bet maybe a double shot on that.

Would you be thinking of the steam boiler?

Hmmmm. You're probably right. But I will have to go play with it just to satisfy myself. Durn it.