Hi Guys,

I am new to this forum, I heard there is so much knowledge to be gained here, so here I am!

I unboxed my Rancilio Silvia (with PID) + Baratza Virtuso yesterday. Let me tell you the truth. All my trials have been disappointing so far.

This is my first ever espresso machine, so I spent a lot of time reading the manual and reading the customised manual (for PID). If i understand things correctly, PID just makes your life easier by controlling temp, and the rhythm of the water flow into the headgear or whatever its called.

I think the problem is the grinding or my tamping technique or both. Let me share with you the results of the shots that I made :
Trial 1: Grind level (3). Water was not coming out of the portafilter, I felt like it was very hard to take out too, so I had to rinse the portafilter with water.
Trial 2: Grind level (6). Water was not coming out.
Trial 3: Grind level (14). Water was coming out at a fast speed, It was a very watery shot with almost no crema.
Trial 4: Grind Level (10). It was a drinkable shot. espresso was not flowing evenly from portafilter. I felt like the flow was slow which resulted in a very condensed espresso shot . But the volume was too low.

What am I doing wrong, is it the grind? tamping? or maybe Miss Silvia pressure is too low? Pid settings are wrong?

Need your help guys.

Thanks

abs133 wrote:Trial 1: Grind level (3). Water was not coming out of the portafilter, I felt like it was very hard to take out too, so I had to rinse the portafilter with water.
Trial 2: Grind level (6). Water was not coming out.
Trial 3: Grind level (14). Water was coming out at a fast speed, It was a very watery shot with almost no crema.
Trial 4: Grind Level (10). It was a drinkable shot. espresso was not flowing evenly from portafilter. I felt like the flow was slow which resulted in a very condensed espresso shot . But the volume was too low.

What am I doing wrong, is it the grind? tamping? or maybe Miss Silvia pressure is too low? Pid settings are wrong?

Welcome to the never-ending quest! You've actually made more progress in a day than many do in a month, and it sounds to me like you understand the basics already - you made the grind coarser when you got no flow with a 6, and you came back down when you got high flow rates with a 14. If you're saying that there's more flow from one spout than the other on a double PF, you've probably got channeling because your tamp isn't even and firm enough.

I'd start by working on your dosing, tamping and timing. If you have a scale, check to be sure you're using a reasonable dose (somewhere between 14 and 18 grams in a double basket) and using the same amount each time. You can refine this later by taste once you're pulling consistent shots. Tap the PF gently a few times while adding the coffee to even out the distribution - you can add half, tap, add some more, tap etc with 1 or 2 gentle taps each time.

After leveling the top of the coffee with the PF rim, I seat the tamper gently on the coffee and rock it once in each direction (N-S-E-W) with a little downward pressure to even out the puck before firmly tamping straight down the axis of the tamper (perfectly perpendicular to the surface of the puck). You'll have to experiment with tamping pressure, and you'll probably pull at least 20 shots before you hone in on the right pressure for your machine, coffee, grinder and taste. Before you remove the tamper, let it sit on the puck and rotate it smoothly a few times to "polish" the surface of the coffee. Once you start pulling consistent shots, you can worry about the other factors you mention.

If your shots are taking over 30 seconds per ounce of coffee from a double PF, you're either grinding too finely or tamping too hard (or both). Dose as above with a 10, use less pressure to tamp, and see what happens. If you get 2 ounces in 20 seconds, try a step finer grind with the same tamping pressure. Or try a bit more tamping pressure still using a 10. You'll figure it out - have fun!

Definitely focus on dosing and distribution. Make sure you're using the same amount of coffee everytime and you're putting it into a dry filter basket as evenly as possible. I'd have to disagree with the previous post about tamping though. Keep your tamp consistent from shot to shot. If the steps are too large on your grinder, adjust your dose, not your tamp.

Of course, I completely agree that adjusting barista mechanics is the first thing to do before adjusting your machine (OPV, etc).

Also, what coffee are you using? How fresh is it? Is it from a high quality roaster?

I've had my Silvia for about 2 months now, and started off very much like you. However, I managed to get a drinkable shot in 3 tries rather than your 4. After 2 months regular use, the only times I have problems dialing in the dose, are when starting with a new batch of coffee, when the humidity changes dramatically, or when the cat adjusts my (his) grinder, and I don't notice. The thing that helped most in dialing in was consistency on my part. I weigh the coffee in the portafilter with a scale that is accurate to 0.1g, and adjust if the weight is wrong. (I use 14.0g of coffee for a double shot (60g). Your taste may be different, and you may want a higher dose.)
After weighing the dose, I brew. The Pid has a timer, and the brew time is exactly 25 seconds. After the brew, I weigh the coffee, which should weigh 60.0g, and record the grind setting, grind time, dose weight, brew time, and brew weight. If the brew weight is substantially less than 60g, then I need to grind with a coarser grind. If it is less than 60g, I need to grind finer. (That's where keeping accurate records comes in.)

Good luck,

Alan

maccompatible wrote:I'd have to disagree with the previous post about tamping though. Keep your tamp consistent from shot to shot.

I agree completely with your admonition, Matthew - once you're using close to ideal tampling force for the coffee and grind. But we have no idea how close to optimum tamping force he is. I've watched people tamp so hard that the counter top bent, and I've seen some who put little more than the weight of the tamper on the puck. So it won't help him to be consistent if he's tamping 'way too firmly or lightly. I've never been a "30 pounder", preferring to rely on the combination of feel and grind to reach the sweetest combo - and I try to be consistent once I find the grind / dose / tamp combo I like best for each bean or blend. But a newbie is as likely to be 'way off as he is to be right on with tamping pressure.

So it can't hurt for him to try a little more or less pressure on a few shots to see if he can improve them, and I think he'll learn a little in the process. If a minor change in tamping pressure doubles the shot time, he might try a slightly coarser grind. And if a major change doesn't affect it at all, he might want to go one or two steps finer. By weighing and timing, he'll soon find out what works best for him once he's in the 25-35 second ballpark.

David

It's very difficult to teach yourself how to pull a decent shot with someone describing the process in text form. Likewise it's very difficult to diagnose your problems without standing next to you and observing your technique.

That being said, I can offer a few tips which may help.

The name of the game is consistency and getting repeatable results (even if those results are bad), and then changing each variable individually to try and correct your results.

First of all, don't overlook the importance of dosing and distribution before you tamp. Make sure your does is the same every single time. A difference of even 1/2 of a gram can potentially make a big difference. Makes sure the dose is evenly distributed with no mounds or voids before you tamp.

Tamp with 30 pounds of pressure. Practice your tamping force on scales until you can do this consistently every time. Using a good quality tamper (not the one that comes with the machine), is very helpful. Later on you may wish to experiment with different tamping pressures, but not until you can achieve consistent results should you try this.

Lock the portafilter in place and then pull it back off before you've pulled the shot. If you see an indentation of any sort from the screen, then you've almost certainly overdosed.

Turn the pump on for a consistent time, say 25 seconds. This should yield a consistent volume for a given grinder setting. If not, then you need to refine your technique of dosing and tamping until you can get a consistent volume. Once this is achieved it's just a matter of changing your grinder settings until you get the volume you want.

Once you have perfected getting consistent results, you can change the variables like shot time, dose, PID, and grinder settings for the result you want.

Thank you all for your tips.
I have one question though (for the time being )

Why do I need to weigh the coffee ground , since I am distributing the ground evenly & uniformly (I try) on the coffee basket?

That being said, I think I need to do the following:

1- weight the ground.
2- practise my tamp on a scale.
3- record espresso weight ( I think I don't have to time the extraction time now since i am using the PID).

Extra help is appreciated

maccompatible wrote:Definitely focus on dosing and distribution. Make sure you're using the same amount of coffee everytime and you're putting it into a dry filter basket as evenly as possible. I'd have to disagree with the previous post about tamping though. Keep your tamp consistent from shot to shot. If the steps are too large on your grinder, adjust your dose, not your tamp.

Of course, I completely agree that adjusting barista mechanics is the first thing to do before adjusting your machine (OPV, etc).

Also, what coffee are you using? How fresh is it? Is it from a high quality roaster?

I do have "gourmet coffee" but I decided not to experiment with it... Instead I used Caffe Ladro - Ladro Espresso. It is a gift from Seattle coffee gear.. I think it is a decent coffee... not too great, no?

abs133 wrote:I do have "gourmet coffee" but I decided not to experiment with it... Instead I used Caffe Ladro - Ladro Espresso. It is a gift from Seattle coffee gear.. I think it is a decent coffee... not too great, no?

That should be fine as long as they were roasted no more than 2 or 3 weeks ago. I've had some darn good espresso from those beans. Anyway, yeah. It sounds like you're on the right track. Get your tamp under control. Weigh your final product. A normal espresso weighs double what the beans weigh. So 14-18 grams of beans in gives 28-36 grams output. But most importantly, TASTE it. If it's sour, you'll need to extract more from the beans (finer grind, higher temp) and if it's bitter you'll need to back off (coarser grind, lower temp). There's a balance to be struck between the objective and subjective results in espresso production, but they're both essential.

bluesman wrote:I agree...once you're using close to ideal tampling force for the coffee and grind. But we have no idea how close to optimum tamping force he is.

Oh! I see where you're coming from now. I misunderstood.

Tiny update.

Trial # 5: Grind on level 12. Distributed the coffee (14 grams) evenly on the PF. Forgot to tamp it... the shot felt tasted alright but was too watery. Result was drinkable at best.

Trial #6: same grind. I didn't weigh this time but I tamped this time. Result was a good shot, not bitter, not sour, but again was too watery.

To do next time:

1-Buy shots classes in order to know what exactly is the right size.
2- Get an easier to use scale (mine is too tiny and i can't see the measurement once I place the beans over it ).
3- Use level 11 or Tamp really hard.
4- check my tamping strength on a normal scale.