Hi everyone -

I know the archives are full of threads about owners upgrading from small machines (a Solis SL-70 in my case) who have trouble steaming milk, and I've read them all. But I still feel like I'm spinning my wheels with my new Andreja Premium and don't know what to try next. So I turn to you guys to answer some questions that I have. I'm getting used to the fact that I have to work fast, but my problem is that I either get too little expansion (almost no foam) if I'm too careful about surfing the trip when I stretch, or I get foam that lacks the silky smooth texture and fine-grained bubbles. I'm not getting huge dish-soap bubbles, but it's also not that yogurty-smooth stuff we like to pour. I'm using 8-9 oz of milk in a 20 oz pitcher and I've experimented with various wand/pitcher positions and angles. I'm able to get great whirlpool action, but still either no foam or grainy foam.

So, could you guys who own APs or Vetranos or other machines with the no-burn wands and tips give me some specifics about wand/pitcher angles, positions, sizes, milk volumes, etc. when you steam. At this point, I can't imagine I'll ever be able to use the 12 oz. pitcher for smaller drinks.

I'm not ready to abandon the no-burn tip yet, but I'm considering asking Chris to sell me a replacement no-burn tip if he can get one, plugging the two small holes with JB Weld, and drilling a single center hole that's slightly bigger (to get back to my single-hole Solis roots). I love the espresso from the new machine and I'm sure I'll learn to love it for it's steaming power too, but this machine has really made me appreciate what a great machine (for it's class) the SL-70 was for making milk drinks.

Any comments or advice here would be appreciated.

Don't despair! There's a steep learning curve when you go from a low-priced single boiler machine to a prosumer HX machine, but you'll get the hang of it soon. It's mostly a matter of learning the rhythm of the machine's steaming and learning to surf the tip for just the right amount of time, then sinking the tip and letting the milk spin. Easier said than done, and every machine is different. You just have to stick with it and find the sweet spot for surfing and whirlpooling the milk.

Have you seen this thread yet?

how-to-steam-milk-for-cappuccinos-and-lattes-t5258.html

In particular, check out RegulatorJohnson's video about halfway down the page. He has the Vetrano, which is very similar to your Andreja. Watch and listen for the sound of the tip as it surfs the top of the milk. Also observe how the tip is placed near the side of the pitcher to make the whirlpool. Try to duplicate his technique, and you should be able to get excellent results.

Have you tried different brands as well as fat content milk? Higher fat milk (whole milk) will produce a very fine and silky microfoam but takes a little more stretching. Low fat milks (1%, Skim, soy) will froth fast and easy but have a tendency to produce larger bubbles easier. Some milks will just not foam properly either.

To expand a bit on what Dave stated - milk come in a lot of varieties. And in some states, or at least
in California, they are required by law to have certain levels of solids in them.

The best milks for steaming are Organic whole milk. In Oregon and California, one can get Barista
milk - milk formulated for steaming, but to do so requires going through distributers, not the general
grocery stores.

I'm only passable at steaming on various machines. This is the technique I use on my AP -

10oz pitcher frozen, 5 oz organic whole milk
Cup outside of pitcher with right hand
Stretch until pitcher starts to warm (Milk should start to shine at this point)
Bury wand about half down in milk

Shutting down depends upon what your target is -

macchiato - pitcher should almost to hot to touch
cappuccino - pitcher should be too hot to touch
latte - pitcher should be too hot to touch plus a 2 second count

On the AP, one should be too quick rather than at the above of too long.

Also, the milk should come up to approx. 1/4" below the beginning of the
spout of the pitcher - about 1/3 of the pitcher. Too little milk and it gets much harder
to get good microfoam. Well, I find it much harder.

If using a thermometer stretching should stop at 100 degree F. Hot would occur
starting at 140 degrees F, with the latte temp around 150.

Bob

First thing is fresh milk. Old milk reacts inconsistently, cardboard foam, big bubbles, no foam.

Try to make the sound of frying bacon while stretching. On the Vibiemme, I just insert the tip up to the join between the nozzle and the wand and open the valve. Adjust the pitcher to get the sound and keep it there by slowly lowering the pitcher as the volume increases. About 90°F, plunge the tip and tilt the pitcher to roil the foam and milk. Close the valve about 135°F for latte.

Buy a gallon of milk and have at it until you've got it. It's easier to make adjustments while the last disaster is fresh in your mind.

Thanks for your help guys.

I'm out of town right now, but I'll post a video when I get home to see if that is any help in diagnosing my problems.

The above link to RegulatorJohnson's Vetrano video is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

I'm using only fresh organic milk, and the same kind I've used to get great results from my Solis, so I know that it should work. Just need to get some consistency and practice.

Thanks again.

I find it pretty curious that so many people seem to struggle with the Andreja. I'm one of those people. Trust me, I've also looked at every video and used twelve types of milk. It just won't work on this machine. The weird thing that ppopp also mentions is that there's either no foam or too thick foam. There is no middle way. This has also been reported multiple times with the AP. My experience is the same. Even after one year of testing. I keep testing with water first to find a new wand position that'll give me a good spinning action. After that the milk wasting starts. End result: no foam or thick foam. No exceptions.

I think the problem is one of the following:

- The steam is too wet
- The orientation of the two holes is wrong (compared to other 2-hole tip owners that do get proper results)

To address the first problem I would really like to know the volume of water that comes out after steaming into an empty vessel for one minute. I would like to post my results but I'm not at home. Will report back ASAP.

Concerning the orientation of the holes; if I pull the steam wand out and put it in it's most "vertical" position, then my holes are at the 11 and 5 position. Altering the position of the wand isn't really handy because it'll make it difficult to handle the pitcher. So, as I see it, 11 and 5 is the position I am stuck with unless I untighten the steaming tip a bit. This seems like a bad idea cause it'll create a crack that's impossible to clean.

I would appreciate any feedback from others on this matter and especially Andreja Premium owners.

Thanks in advance,

Bas

I would think the 6 and 12 o'clock positions would be best for creating the whirlpool. Maybe you can put some teflon tape or a small O-ring on the threads to allow you to get the tip into a different position.

You could add an O ring to keep milk from getting in a hard to clean place. I just happen to have an assortment of O-rings in front of me. Lets see... either a 5/16" ID (SCB0562 slight tight, perfect IMHO) or a 3/8" ID (SCD0565) O-ring would work.

The smaller O-ring lets you rotate the tip about 90 degrees while maintaining a tight fit.

Mark

I'm going to disagree with Bas, the AP is not that hard to steam with. I've used machines that were near
impossible to steam with - Wega, La Pavoni, and those that were really easy - La Cimbali, Nova Simonelli,
Synesso. The AP is just a bit more difficult than a LaMarzocco GB5 with factory tip.

It's certainly harder with smaller quantities of milk - 5 oz. But it can be done and is repeatable. Don't worry about swirling or vortexes, just stretch, but keep it on the cool side - the AP is fast. After it's hot, for a cappuccino, pour off the top .25 oz., then pour into the espresso.

If you really want to practice, you'll need to practice with latte sized quantities of milk - 8 oz to 12 oz,
once you get consistent there, then move down to cappuccino quantities of milk. It's harder. but it's
not impossible, and if you don't stretch it too much, rosettas can be made in a cappuccino.

Bob