FLFireman on HB and CG wrote:Do I have to plop down some serious dough on a new machine to get these parts retailers to even want to talk to me? NO THANKS! I've dealt with places like that many times and have no desire to again.

FLFireman on CoffeeGeek wrote:Ok, yes, I did read the probationary 5-post rule and have refrained from posting any identifiable information about any company.

Chris, you have a legitimate complaint, but posting it in two online forums less than 10 minutes apart suggests part of your motivation is to publicly shame the vendors involved. The Guidelines for productive discussion addresses this usage of online forums ("Please use these forums only as a last resort for complaining about vendors"). If you intend to participate on HB, I ask that you read and agree to the guidelines.

BTW, you were aware of the rules on CG and circumvented them by using anonymous references to the vendors. I feel that's a violation of the spirit of the rules, but will ask Mark Prince for a clarification on that point.

Randy G. wrote:The request for a E-mail parts list is not at all unreasonable. That way they would have the serial number of the machine and the parts needed in writing. Why hold you on the phone while the part guy tried to look up the correct part numbers and hang up the line. They could then get back to you in writing. That's the way my order was placed.

I asked 1st-line about their e-mail only policy for parts. They've had trouble with verbal miscommunications in the past. The wrong part would get sent to the customer and a "he said, she said" argument would ensue. To avoid confusion and create a record of the transaction details, they ask that e-mail be used. This obviously isn't necessarily for parts ordered directly from the website.

Sounds like a reasonable policy to me.

FLFireman wrote:In my searches for an E-61 machine at a non-E-61-machine-price, I've read an extensive amount of posts on this site and others, and I was overwhelmed by the number of posts I read where the "best" and seemingly "most-loved" retailers & distibutors were answering forum questions regarding repairs and custom mods!

Yes, these questions are answered in the forums by both retailers, distributors, customers, and geeks. In regards to specific personal conversations between two parties offline (or on the phone), I would think both parties would need to agree to the time involved - no matter how long or short the time is.

FLFireman wrote:I *finally* got my hands on an E-61 machine (Isomac Tea) at an acceptable price that needs a couple parts to get back up to working condition. OK, it's not here yet so I don't have my hands physically on it. But I do know exactly what parts need replacement -- the pressure hose and steam wand. Of course, I'd rather buy something even better than the stock steam wand, since I'm going to mod and upgrade this machine anyway, so I'm open to any brand.

And, this forum or your selling party would have been the best place to inquire of this and your future mods.

FLFireman wrote:And at this point, any generic pressure hose with the right fittings would suffice. Eventually I will probably replace every part inside with the best of its kind, and the machine will be pic-controlled with a touchscreen OLED display replacing the ugly switch and light on the angled part of the bezel. The drip-tray section will be modified to accept a tall cup to make milk drinks directly into the cup. Yeah I know that's not the norm, but I find my "macchiato method" doesn't leave 50% of my crema on the inside of the shot pitcher. And it will also have a wireless web server for easy tweaking and data collection.

This sounds great!

FLFireman wrote:Without hesitation I gave one major supplier a call about a steam wand and pressure hose I could use for my machine. After being directed to the parts department, I was shrugged off and told that they don't deal with Isomac anymore and that they have no idea what steam wand I can use (even though they have a section on their website for Isomac parts).

I believe you made an assumption that since several common parts that are sold for a particular model are available makes due course that every part on the machine is known to the exact degree. Unfortunately, this assumption is not valid.

FLFireman wrote:The guy really couldn't get me off the phone fast enough. I was unbelievably thrown back by his attitude, after, like I said, I had read so many helpful posts by their employees, and seen so many posts praising them.

Praised by their customers.....

FLFireman wrote:I was going to place a pretty pricey order with them for a grinder and roaster, but after that I immediately cut them out of the order and just got the nicely-machined naked portafilter they sell that I couldn't find anywhere else.

May I ask why you did not just buy a brand new pricey machine, as well? I am having a difficult time making the connection with the first statement on this post "In my searches for an E-61 machine at a non-E-61-machine-price" and 'place a pretty pricey order with them for a grinder and roaster.'

FLFireman wrote:So then I give 1st-Line a call, whose website lists even more Isomac parts (but unfortunately not the pressure hose), and whose name is mentioned by Isomac as an official parts distributor. I simply wanted to know if they carried it and how I could order it over the website. I was asked "did you buy your machine from us?", to which I told him I didn't. At that point he couldn't tell me fast enough that all parts must be discussed via email and that they at the call center "are not trained" to take parts orders over the phone. OK, why was I asked if I bought the machine through them or not... would it have changed his level of customer service toward me?

Just to make you aware... my office is an open, general location where I can hear the conversations of our call center employees. I did hear our side of the conversation. I am not too sure how much more clear Drew (who initially answered your call) could be. Drew did respond by referring you to the web site, and then to email. It had nothing to do with an order, but the inquiry.

We carry over 200 models of espresso machines. This is already a difficult task to train and master. 1st-line Equipment also stocks 2,000+ skus of parts. Almost 1,000 of these are online. At this time, the training for parts in the call center is close to impossible - this is a clear business realization. Hence, there are a very limited number of people who can handle parts inquiries in our industry - not just 1st-line. Since this a limited resource, this is the reason why many companies in our industry limit it to equipment customers or are very brief in their responses.

FLFireman wrote:It took great perseverance just to get him to let me explain that I didn't want to ORDER the part, just to see if they carried it. And what's the difference in discussing parts over the phone or via email... are the parts people deaf and dumb?

There is a difference in phone and email. Phone service requires immediate response. It also takes valuable time away from equipment customers who are yes, the primary focus of satisfaction. This is considered uptime. Via email, these inquiries are handled on down time - meaning when time is available, the inquiry would be addressed. Also, if you question whether if there is no difference, then why could you not just email as requested?

You did not even have your machine at the time of your call. Was this SO urgent that you needed an immediate response? Your latter comment of deaf and dumb is clearly an insult and unfounded.

FLFireman wrote:So I asked for the number of the administrative offices. I was then put on hold and my call was picked up buy a gentleman by the name of Moses, who immediately began telling me that I should have listened to what the previous person told me about parts orders, and it took even more perseverance for me to get him to understand that I didn't want to ORDER over the phone.

The inquiry was to be made via email. This is clearly stated on our web site here:

http://www.1st-line.com/parts/parts.htm

FLFireman wrote:Once I did explain that I just wanted to see if they carried the pressure hose, I was passed to one of the "business partners" named Jim... who IMMEDIATELY proceeded to tell me that they do not take parts orders over the phone, again without listening to me at all. Disgusted, I just answered "OK thanks".

There was more to the conversation than this. However, I am not going to get into a he said/he said contest here.

FLFireman wrote:Do I have to plop down some serious dough on a new machine to get these parts retailers to even want to talk to me? NO THANKS! I've dealt with places like that many times and have no desire to again.

Actually, if you want the service you expected, I would say the answer is yes, you need to purchase the machine directly from the company, or at least be willing to pay for someone's time to research the answers to your needs, or at least follow the procedures set at each company.

First class organizations become first class because they take care of their equipment customers. This does not mean that this is an open door for non-customers to acquire immediate assistance for every technical, part, or repair inquiry. If this was the case, these first class companies would become second class or just go out of business. The reason is that the deluge of non-customer technical and parts calls impacts the service levels to customers who did in fact buy their equipment from a first class company. I have experienced this impact first hand at 1st-line Equipment a few years ago, and I have seen several competitors fall because of the lack of support for customers due to non-customer inquiries.

I know you may not like some of the answers here, but our industry behaves different than what I call mass-market industries. This is one of the main reasons why it is important to seriously select the vendor as the machine, and then have a nurturing relationship.

FLFireman wrote:In my searches for an E-61 machine at a non-E-61-machine-price ...

....

Do I have to plop down some serious dough on a new machine to get these parts retailers to even want to talk to me? NO THANKS! I've dealt with places like that many times and have no desire to again.

As expensive as aftermarket parts are, they are probably super-tough to make much money on, and are mostly offered as a service to customers who buy machines. When you get a machine through eBay, the money that you "save" is the price of service. I do not think it is reasonable to expect you will get special treatment (outside of stated policy) from a business that you have not become a patron of.

From my personal perspective, I think that you would have been wiser to get a secondhand grinder, and have bought your machine from a vendor. There is a lot that can go wrong with these machines, and for the money it's going to cost you to upgrade all the components to the best (Sirai stat, replace the Gicar box, put in a rotary pump or replace a dead vibe pump, plumb in, etc., etc.), you might as well have bought a Vibiemme and gotten all the best parts stock, and a 1-year warranty to boot, not to mention cheerful service that we all praise.

The grinder, on the other hand, I feel is much safer to get secondhand, provided that it isn't internally damaged. The commercial grinders you can find on the internet are made up of components that have dramatically longer service times than most of the odd (and expensive) parts in an espresso machine. In most cases, grinders just need to be torn down, cleaned, and have their burrs replaced. And once that's done, there's little or no maintenance that you have to do (other than cleaning) to the grinder for the rest of your life, more than likely--certainly, several years. That kind of performance is not expected of a machine, especially not a low-end E61 machine like the Tea.

shadowfax wrote:I couldn't guess what supplier Randy was referring to, but Espressoparts Northwest is a great place to get kit (I have everything from tampers to T-shirts from them), and they stock Isomac Tea parts...

I was referring to Stefano (www.espressocare.com). WLL use to have a good reputation, but in the last few years things there have changed according to some reports on alt.coffee. Hopefully things have changed over there. I know they went through some changes in regards to management a while back.

Randy,

I tried to buy an XPressivo tamper & knockbox, as well as a digital thermometer, from WLL about 2 months ago. I knew that the Xpressivo stuff was on backorder, so I was in no hurry. I called a few times to check on the status, and they were surprisingly helpful. I was duly impressed. I ended up cancelling my order for the Xpressivo gear because the wait became too long (went from April to June), but they were cool and nice about the whole thing.

I am going to disagree with Jim/1ST-Line. A company can/should try to take care of non-customers, who then will become customers.

I bought a Vetrano on eBay. I called the service department at Chris' and arranged to ship the machine directly to them. The folks in the service dept. were always helpful. They checked the machine over, replaced the parts it needed, and shipped it right out to me. It is now taking up a good deal of room on my counter. (Much to the dismay of my wife!) They got paid for the service, the parts, and will get much of my business in the future. I feel this is clearly a win/win.

Sorry, I've got to agree with Jim @ 1st-Line on this one. Customer Service Representatives are expensive. You have to purchase telecom (phone lines, PBX's [Private Branch eXchanges] or their equivalent services from a telephone company), hire people, train these same people, provide IT systems to allow them to search the inventory, place orders with the "warehouse", etc. This is NOT cheap! I've setup call centers for my employer and we spend MILLIONS of $$ doing this (but we make the items, provide service, etc all across the world). I've sent e-mail queries to both Chris @ Chris Coffee Service and to Jim @ 1st-Line and ALWAYS gotten a response from them. SOMETIMES well before I would have expected it! Queries about parts, unless it's an "emergency", I've always done via e-mail. AT A MINIMUM the cost to the retailer is 5-10% of the cost of a phone call. Chris Coffee, 1st-Line and Stefanos have been VERY responsive and always gotten me the information that I needed (not just what I'd requested, either).. The companies that I have problems with are the ones that DON'T respond to e-mail, but REQUIRE you to "phone it in", not because they don't HAVE an e-mail address for questions/queries of this type, but because they don't RESPOND to the e-mail queries. NEVER been a problem with Chris, Jim or Stefano.. I've purchased from Jim in the past and will again, when needed/wanted. Chris, not yet, but, as soon as I can justify the Cimbali MAX Hybrid, he gets the order! . Stefano, Well, I'm thinking of some stuff that he's got and will probably place an order fairly soon.

shadowfax wrote:I tried to buy an XPressivo tamper & knockbox, as well as a digital thermometer, from WLL about 2 months ago. ......... I called a few times to check on the status, and they were surprisingly helpful. I was duly impressed. I ended up cancelling my order ........... but they were cool and nice about the whole thing.

Good to hear. I placed my very first order with them some 7½ years ago. I had talked to Todd (iirc) quite a few times- on the phone and in person. I think he is (was?) concentrating on the Gaggia line now as they are the US reps for that line (iirc), and his brother(?) is now running the WLL end of the company. Good to hear things are going better, though.

My co-worker bought a Silvia, some coffee, and a tamper from WLL and was quite pleased with them.

The reason for the urgency about getting the parts ordered before I had the machine was that I knew the exact parts I needed and just wanted to know how to order them since they weren't listed on any of the websites I checked... so I could get have them arrive around the same time the machine does.

I had considered getting a used grinder, but the savings there would have net been anywhere near as substantial, and I have no interest in spending time refurbing a grinder.

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I didn't want to spend time having a business practices debate, but I am genuinely curious as to why an espresso machine retailer would be expected to be any different from any other fine goods retailer or any other appliance retailer, and why I would have to give up good service if I didn't make a pricey initial purchase. Forgive me and delete this post promptly if I go too far in mentioning company names, but...

I buy lamps and other room accessories from Baer's even though I've never bought a piece of furniture there, which is their major business. I am treated like gold every time I walk into the store. Where's the first place I'd go if I had a need for a piece of furniture I knew they carried? Baer's.

The only place I can locally find a certain $5 cigar I enjoy having five or six times a year is an upscale tobacco shop called The Tobacconist in Boca Raton. And I do mean upscale. Their major business is supplying boxes upon ridiculously-priced boxes to the extremely wealthy in the area. They will not let me walk out without taking time to point out what's new (and explain the leaf used, etc) even though they know I'm usually just after my $5 ones. When anyone ever asks me where to get a good cigar I will recommend no other shop.

I don't think I'll ever make a large purchase from Sound Advice (due to the fact that their prices are simply higher most other places and I am in no need of support afterwards), but it's on my short list to visit when considering a home theater component, which I would not spend a large amount on without seeing first-hand. Even when I say I'm just shopping around and end up with just some accessories and cables, I'm always treated like the only customer in the store. What store is at the top of the list to recommend to the multitudes of people that ask me about home theater equipment? Sound Advice.

IMO, it is the place of the seller to show the buyer that he will get outstanding service before the purchase is made. Why would anyone think that it should be the other way around? Sure, there will be places that impress, and even more that don't when you're looking to make any purchase, but why would any place not strive to impress potential customers until they have made a pricey purchase?

Of the three major on-line espresso equipment retailers I have typically heard good things but one of the three - anecdotally speaking - seems to get the best feedback for after the sale support and one of the others gets for more low marks for that aspect if customer service.

That said - I can't blame any on-line retailer who steers you to order parts from their web site or by making email requests rather than walk you through the process of selection in real time by phone. I've been doing post sale product support in an entirely different industry (high tech networking products) for years and if one spends too much time answering questions about a product that the customer bought elsewhere - it can be a slippery slope that results in that same person calling for advice when they're installing the parts.

But I've also had the experience of being directed to make my parts inquiry by email (to one of the three unnamed espresso product vendors) and receiving no reply to either of the two emails I sent - at which point I simply looked elsewhere to make my purchase. Stuff happens.

But I also put a grain of salt in my perceptive pathways when I hear a report of one person having bad experiences with multiple vendors all in short order. It tells me to look for the second side of the story.