Manufacturing an E61 Espresso Machine?
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bigstu44
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 16 years ago
As you may have read in my other thread, I'm contemplating becoming a retailer for coffee machines, grinders etc. here in the UK. One thing, however, has also had me thinking for a while. I've often wondered how difficult it would be to actually manufacture a new home user model based on the E61? It could be single boiler, double boiler or HX.
These ponderings are only embryonic but with the right answers here and elsewhere they could develop. However, whilst I have some means at my disposal, they are very far from unlimited!! So, as a start to my research, I'm hoping to tap into the great wealth of knowledge that can be found right here on these forums. I have a very limited knowledge of the inner workings of these machines so be easy on me!
I'd love to find out from those of you with experience if it would be at all possible to compete with existing manufacturers without needing a small fortune in investment. I'm guessing the most expensive parts would be the boiler, grouphead, pump and the casing. It's obvious to me that until you start buying all the components in bulk that you couldn't compete.
Which leads to the million dollar question: how much bulk would you need to buy in to be competitive? Could you start off with a relatively small setup and grow it from there or would you have to jump in with all guns blazing and a massive investment to have any chance of competing? Are we talking tens or hundreds of units at a time? (my guess is that it doesn't have to be thousands)
I'm also uneducated regarding the whole E61 thing. Correct me if I'm wrong:
• The original Faema E61 group still belongs to Faema
• VBM have a clone version .. and thats what most companies are using
• Faema sold out and the owners became VBM
• Everybody pays a licence to use it.
Does anyone know how restrictive or expensive this could be? If this was a real restrictive issue, could an equally good alternative be produced without infringement? (and without the process itself becoming more of a barrier!)
I have also pondered this. The machines are so damn expensive! It's obvious to me that you can't skimp on the internal workings to manufacture a machine that produces fantastic coffee and also lasts for years. However, could the external design be made a bit cheaper to produce without compromising quality? I realise there might be an aesthetic price to pay but if I had a real tight budget I'd rather have a great tasting coffee from a machine that was just 'okay' to look at than no coffee from a machine that was a work of art but I couldn't afford!
And now my final question. Is it purely tradition/history that results in the majority of machine production still coming from Italy? Or is it something to do with aforementioned patents/licensing etc? Thanks for reading my long winded post and I'd be delighted to hear from everyone!
PS added by moderator: Same question cross-posted to CoffeeGeek here.
These ponderings are only embryonic but with the right answers here and elsewhere they could develop. However, whilst I have some means at my disposal, they are very far from unlimited!! So, as a start to my research, I'm hoping to tap into the great wealth of knowledge that can be found right here on these forums. I have a very limited knowledge of the inner workings of these machines so be easy on me!
I'd love to find out from those of you with experience if it would be at all possible to compete with existing manufacturers without needing a small fortune in investment. I'm guessing the most expensive parts would be the boiler, grouphead, pump and the casing. It's obvious to me that until you start buying all the components in bulk that you couldn't compete.
Which leads to the million dollar question: how much bulk would you need to buy in to be competitive? Could you start off with a relatively small setup and grow it from there or would you have to jump in with all guns blazing and a massive investment to have any chance of competing? Are we talking tens or hundreds of units at a time? (my guess is that it doesn't have to be thousands)
I'm also uneducated regarding the whole E61 thing. Correct me if I'm wrong:
• The original Faema E61 group still belongs to Faema
• VBM have a clone version .. and thats what most companies are using
• Faema sold out and the owners became VBM
• Everybody pays a licence to use it.
Does anyone know how restrictive or expensive this could be? If this was a real restrictive issue, could an equally good alternative be produced without infringement? (and without the process itself becoming more of a barrier!)
I have also pondered this. The machines are so damn expensive! It's obvious to me that you can't skimp on the internal workings to manufacture a machine that produces fantastic coffee and also lasts for years. However, could the external design be made a bit cheaper to produce without compromising quality? I realise there might be an aesthetic price to pay but if I had a real tight budget I'd rather have a great tasting coffee from a machine that was just 'okay' to look at than no coffee from a machine that was a work of art but I couldn't afford!
And now my final question. Is it purely tradition/history that results in the majority of machine production still coming from Italy? Or is it something to do with aforementioned patents/licensing etc? Thanks for reading my long winded post and I'd be delighted to hear from everyone!
PS added by moderator: Same question cross-posted to CoffeeGeek here.
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another_jim
- Team HB
- Posts: 13934
- Joined: 19 years ago
The E61 is public domain. VBM, Spanish Gaggia (whatever they are calling themselves today), CMI, and various parts manufacturers all make near clones with near interchangeable parts. The steam and water valve units are equally available. Isomac and other "E61 box" manufacturers use off the shelf boiler/HX combos, and I've seen the same 1.2 and 1.8 liter versions in lots of different manufacturers' boxes.
You have a different problem. Nobody will sell you these parts at the quantity discounts that would permit you to assemble and sell the machines at a competitive price. You are not part of the social networks which make up this industry. If you actually want to sell the machines competitively -- go to China and contract for a knockoff. The Chinese are quite aware of their plants' problematic QC reputation, so I'm guessing there are a lot of independent quality control agencies to choose from, who will inspect and test production runs prior to shipment.
You have a different problem. Nobody will sell you these parts at the quantity discounts that would permit you to assemble and sell the machines at a competitive price. You are not part of the social networks which make up this industry. If you actually want to sell the machines competitively -- go to China and contract for a knockoff. The Chinese are quite aware of their plants' problematic QC reputation, so I'm guessing there are a lot of independent quality control agencies to choose from, who will inspect and test production runs prior to shipment.
Jim Schulman
