Love lattes, not so much espresso shots

by **rharlow** on Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:34 pm

My wife and I are, for lack of a better term, addicted to lattes. 2 shots with 12 oz. of sweet steamed milk is our vice. Even though we love supporting our local converse wearing, tattooed wrist, super friendly barista, we are ready to jump into the world of home barista'ing.

A few facts before I pose my question:
1) If my wife could push a shiny red button and out would pop a perfect latte, she'd be thrilled.
2) Thanks to this forum, I know I'll need a decent grinder.
3) We will be drinking lattes 10 to 1 over espresso shots.
4) My budget (based on what I've learned) is under $1,500.

Now the big question:
What machine would you suggest.

Just so you know, I'm currently leaning towards the Expobar Office

PS added by moderator: Cross-posted to Coffeegeek (link).

by **drdna** on Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:10 am

The Expobar is a lot of work. Um, why not a simple super-auto, since it is just for lattes? Like the Solis 5000?

http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.solis-espresso.shtml

Adrian

by **shadowfax** on Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:47 am

If you want something easy for your wife, I think that the Expobar Office will be a horrible choice. If you're not paying much attention, temperature control on an HX machine will be haphazard at best; most likely a horrifying disaster. Also, I should warn you that a lot of home machines, even in the $1000-1500 range, will have a difficult time steaming 8-10 oz. of milk. It will take a long time, I think. I sure can't stand steaming much more than 8 oz. on my Vetrano. If you're making a pair of drinks, it could take quite awhile, not to mention that proper steaming is at least a bit challenging to learn, and requires concentration throughout the process. If you want good drinks, the Expobar Office is going to be a long way from easy.

If you want to be a home barista, there's a choice you have to make: Convenience or high-quality drinks? Getting both, unfortunately, is rather expensive. I am going to assume you will want a healthy compromise.

If I might suggest something slightly over budget, I think in your shoes I would get the QuickMill Alexia and the QuickMill Steamer. I must confess I have no firsthand experience with either machine, so let me point you to the Alexia's detailed review on this site; I would recommend that as a good read. Dan also demoed the auto steamer here. I think the auto steamer might be a convenient way for you to get very reasonably steamed milk without doing any work, which sounds like it would help your wife.

Buying a separate steaming device means that you don't have to buy a HX machine (more work) or double boiler (way out of your price range) machine to get no-wait steaming. You can buy any single-boiler espresso machine you want (they range from ~$300-$1500). This will help you a lot, because it will simplify temperature management without breaking the bank.

Finally, and most importantly, really don't skimp on the grinder or the coffee you buy. The Le'Lit PL53 is probably the cheapest thing you should consider, and you will find nice steps up from that in terms of quietness and ease of use, if you are willing to pay more. If you aren't planning getting a good grinder and using <2 week old coffee roasted by a micro roaster of the caliber of the sites advertised here (PT's, Intelligentsia, Counter Culture, Klatch, etc.), I would not bother with anything beyond the cheapest $300 espresso machine you can find--With bad coffee or a bad grinder, chances are you won't be able to tell any improvement from a cheaper machine to an expensive one like Alexia.

Beware! If you stick with this long enough to learn to make yourself excellent espresso, you may find yourself hopelessly addicted to making the perfect cup. It's not a cheap endeavor. :wink:

by **shadowfax** on Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:51 am

drdna wrote:The Expobar is a lot of work. Um, why not a simple super-auto, since it is just for lattes? Like the Solis 5000?

I would agree that the super-auto is the ultimate convenience machine for drink preparation, but the super-auto milk steaming quality always leaves a lot to be desired, from what I have seen of them (ultra-limited experience here... pretty much just Williams Sonoma).

by **rharlow** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:05 pm

Thanks for the feedback!

So if I'm going to "blow my budget", then what about the La Spaziale Vivaldi II. I've only read great reviews and it seems that the controls are intuitive and the steam process is fairly robust.

Any thoughts on doubling my budget to keep my wife happy?

by **Randy G.** on Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:59 pm

rharlow wrote:So if I'm going to "blow my budget", then what about the La Spaziale Vivaldi II.
Any thoughts on doubling my budget to keep my wife happy?

That is a great machine by all accounts that I have read. I was hoping that Chris would ask me to write the manual for it! :wink:

In that price range it would be a difficult decision for me to make between the la Spaz and the VBMs. I really like the espresso from my VBM, but have not used the La Spaz to be able to make any comment further on that comparison other than to say that the two machines would look quite impressive on my cart with the Kony between them! :lol:

by HB on Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:00 pm

rharlow wrote:Any thoughts on doubling my budget to keep my wife happy?

If you can afford it, why not? Here's some rationale:

High-end equipment holds its value well (approx. 70% retail), so if you change your mind a year or two later, your loss is fairly small
If you buy used, it's likely that you can sell for about the same price a year or two later
Think of all the money you'll save on ordering out (*).

It's rare to read a post of someone who bought a high-end setup and later regretted it. I vaguely recall 2-3 posts in the last four years...

* Of course we all think that until coffee consumption increases and the upgrade cycle begins...

by **TruthBrew** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:09 am

HB wrote:It's rare to read a post of someone who bought a high-end setup and later regretted it.

I agree.

I bought my machine and grinder (~$2200) back in December of 2005. We've used it nearly every day since then, often for 2-5 drinks a day. Until this month I hadn't spent any money on upgrades, which considering how much I normally tinker with stuff speaks to how well the machine performs out of the box. While the machine isn't a "set it and forget it" type auto, my wife can make a cappa/latte is she so desires without too much fuss. You can probably pick any nice machine/grinder in the same price range and have similar results, our choice was the La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi and Macap M4 (at that time stepped, now converted to stepless). Overall it's probably one of the best and lasting purchases we've made.

Good luck in your search.

by **JohnB.** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:19 am

rharlow wrote:So if I'm going to "blow my budget", then what about the La Spaziale Vivaldi II. I've only read great reviews and it seems that the controls are intuitive and the steam process is fairly robust.
Any thoughts on doubling my budget to keep my wife happy?

I had pretty much tripled my original "budget" by the time I finished researching machines & finally bought my S1V2 & grinder. After 11 months of daily use I have no regrets & plan to keep the Vivaldi for many years. The grinder I bought didn't fare as well & has been replaced by a Super Jolly. Go for the Vivaldi but also buy the best grinder you can afford as it makes a huge difference in the cup.

Check out the: http://s1cafe.com/ if you haven't been there already.

by **rharlow** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:58 pm

You guys, you're supposed to make this easy (and less expensive). I was hoping to see a post that said "I spent $500 on the perfect setup, blah, blah, blah." We can all dream, right.

So here is where I currently stand after three weeks of research and your wonderful feedback...
Option #1 is Quickmill Alexia + Baratza Vario = $1,580
Option #2 is La Spaziale Vivaldi II + Baratza Vario = $2,625

So is the La Spaziale Vivaldi II worth the extra $1,040???

Remember: emphasis on making LATTES, not straight espresso.

by **zin1953** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:19 pm

Serious question: is the emphasis on keeping your wife happy (i.e.: "If my wife could push a shiny red button and out would pop a perfect latte, she'd be thrilled"), or is the emphasis on "making LATTES, not straight espresso"?

The double boiler of the La Spaziale Vivaldi II will make for a much shorter learning curve for your wife, and -- if she is willing to push more than just a single button -- she should be making better than average-to-very good lattes (at the very least) in short order.

The QuickMill Alexia is a single boiler/dual use machine (sure you didn't mean the Anita?). This will probably be the most frustrating type of machine to use, as you have to wait for the tempterature to get UP to steam, and then DOWN to brew. (The Anita is an HX model.)

So, if it's between the Alexia and the Vivaldi . . . yes, it would be worth it to get the Vivaldi! (My opinion; not my money.) :wink:

by HB on Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:22 pm

rharlow wrote:So is the La Spaziale Vivaldi II worth the extra $1,040???

That's for you to decide, but clearly the Spaziale holds a huge advantage over the Alexia when it comes to steaming. This point is made in both reviews. Not to push up your budget even further, but I would upgrade the grinder too, say for example to a Mazzer Super Jolly or Cimbali Max Hybrid.

by **shadowfax** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:25 pm

The Alexia is NOT a milk drinker's machine by itself. It is a single boiler machine that will experience either extremely poor consistency or extremely long wait times between brewing, steaming, and back again. In this time, not only will your patience be tested, but the crema will be all but dissipated from your espresso while you steam (or, alternately, your steamed milk will be cool and separated). This is not something you can overcome with increased effort and learning. In a nutshell, as someone who prefers milk-based drinks, Alexia will be a waste of money (without a separate steaming device), whereas the La Spaziale will be exactly what you're looking for, from a utility perspective. I'd say that's worth the extra $1000.

More to the point, the Alexia will not give you what you're looking for, and is not worth $1600 cost of the setup. The La Spaziale will most definitely give you what you want--high quality milk drinks--with some practice. Is that worth $2600? Up to you entirely.

As for the grinder, I am not sure I would recommend an upgrade as Dan has. The Vario looks pretty good on paper, and I haven't read anything about whether or not it's up to snuff. Certainly, a Super Jolly is a safe bet, but odds are, with the interest in the Vario, you can probably buy one and sell it for nearly as much in a few months if it's not good enough for you.

by HB on Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:31 pm

shadowfax wrote:As for the grinder, I am not sure I would recommend an upgrade as Dan has. The Vario looks pretty good on paper, and I haven't read anything about whether or not it's up to snuff.

Good point, I've not read anything substantive on the Vario; it may well be a fantastic grinder. The description sounds promising (e.g., ceramic burrs, timer settings, fine tuning adjustment).

by **RapidCoffee** on Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:10 pm

rharlow wrote:My wife and I are, for lack of a better term, addicted to lattes. 2 shots with 12 oz. of sweet steamed milk is our vice.

A few facts before I pose my question:
1) If my wife could push a shiny red button and out would pop a perfect latte, she'd be thrilled.
2) Thanks to this forum, I know I'll need a decent grinder.
3) We will be drinking lattes 10 to 1 over espresso shots.
4) My budget (based on what I've learned) is under $1,500.

Just so you know, I'm currently leaning towards the Expobar Office

In contrast to other respondents, I see nothing wrong with your original plan. A reasonably priced HX machine makes a lot of sense for latte lovers, whereas a single boiler (Alexia) would be a bad choice, and a double boiler (LaSpaz) is expensive overkill. You might consider the NS Oscar, which has a larger boiler than the Expobar, and fantastic steaming ability. You can stay within your budget, and it even comes in red.

There is nothing inherently difficult in using an HX machine. Yes, you need to flush overheated water from an idling HX prior to pulling your shot, but all espresso machines benefit from a short flush. IMHO, other aspects of preparing a latte (grind, dose, distribution, tamp, frothing) are every bit as difficult to master. If you can't handle the flush, then a superauto is probably your best bet.

by **zin1953** on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:45 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:In contrast to other respondents, I see nothing wrong with your original plan. A reasonably priced HX machine makes a lot of sense for latte lovers, whereas a single boiler (Alexia) would be a bad choice, and a double boiler (LaSpaz) is expensive overkill. You might consider the NS Oscar, which has a larger boiler than the Expobar, and fantastic steaming ability. You can stay within your budget, and it even comes in red.

There is nothing inherently difficult in using an HX machine. Yes, you need to flush overheated water from an idling HX prior to pulling your shot, but all espresso machines benefit from a short flush. IMHO, other aspects of preparing a latte (grind, dose, distribution, tamp, frothing) are every bit as difficult to master. If you can't handle the flush, then a superauto is probably your best bet.

Thanks, John, for making the point I was trying to make much more clearly than I . . .

If the OP's wife is going to use the machine, the learning curve on the Vivaldi is certainly easier than on a single boiler/dural use machine like the Alexia -- which is why I thought he might be referring to an Anita, an HX model. If, on the other hand, the OP will be the primary user, the learning curve on an HX -- be it an Anita or an Oscar -- is easily learned, but "pushing a button" it will never be . . .

by **Marshall** on Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:09 pm

rharlow wrote:My wife and I are, for lack of a better term, addicted to lattes. 2 shots with 12 oz. of sweet steamed milk is our vice.

I think what you are planning will be a big waste of money and a lot of aggravation for you. I doubt there is anyone on this board who could tell how good the espresso was in "12 oz. of sweet steamed milk." If I were you, I would chuck the grinder, chuck the high end espresso machine and just buy a decent pod machine and one of those single-function frothing devices. You will simplify your lives, avoid 20 visits here to figure out how to get a better drink out of your machines, and be as happy as clams.

Possible machine: the Nespresso Essenza (under $250 US). Or just stick with your superauto.

Some regulars here will think I am gratuitously insulting you. I am not. I really think this is what will make you and your wife happiest and is what I would recommend to any friend with your preferences.

by **drdna** on Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:09 pm

marshall wrote:I think what you are planning will be a big waste of money and a lot of aggravation for you. I doubt there is anyone on this board who could tell how good the espresso was in "12 oz. of sweet steamed milk." If I were you, I would chuck the grinder, chuck the high end espresso machine and just buy a decent pod machine and one of those single-function frothing devices.

I could not be more in agreement with Marshall. Most of the advice you are getting is geared toward the idea of a set-up that must make an excellent straight shot of espresso. This is NOT your starting point.

Will the La Spaziale work? Yes, absolutely. (This is my set-up, BTW.) However, its strengths are that it can make an excellent straight shot of espresso and you can tweak the temperature and pre-infusion to your specifications.

Is it "better" than the Quickmill? Not really. Both will make a great cup of espresso. The Quickmill is a bit more fussy and does not have single-button ease of use. Is it worth the extra $1000? Only if you want to have single button functionality, volumetric dosing, temperature adjustment, and variable pre-infusion.

Is either a good choice for your purposes (lattes galore)? Well, they will both make fantastic lattes, but it's a bit like hiring a private jet for a business trip. You can fly coach and still get there. If you are happy with what you get at Starbuck's or most other coffee shops, you will be happy with a super-auto like the Solis 5000.

Adrian

by **RapidCoffee** on Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:50 pm

Well, there you have it. For lattes, the experts at H-B recommend that you get one of the following machines:

1) single boiler (with PID no less)
2) double boiler
3) heat exchanger
4) superauto
5) pod
6) manual or spring lever (what the heck, might as well add this for completeness)

Ain't consensus grand? :twisted:

by **shadowfax** on Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:00 am

RapidCoffee wrote:Well, there you have it. For lattes, the experts at H-B recommend that you get one of the following machines:

1) single boiler (with PID no less)

As an originator of this idea, I wanted to defend myself by mentioning that I STRONGLY stressed the need for an alternate method of steaming milk, if going with the single boiler option. :twisted:


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