Marshall wrote:I think what you are planning will be a big waste of money and a lot of aggravation for you. I doubt there is anyone on this board who could tell how good the espresso was in "12 oz. of sweet steamed milk."

I respectfully disagree. While I don't drink double shot 12oz lattes I do sample them periodically at my cafe and guarantee can tell the difference if the shot good or bad. Yet of course not as glaringly as with a straight shot.

FWIW a double shot 12oz latte is very similar in ratio to a traditional Italian single shot breakfast cappuccino, of course the latte with less dense micro-foam.

RapidCoffee wrote:Well, there you have it. For lattes, the experts at H-B recommend that you get one of the following machines:

1) single boiler (with PID no less)

As an originator of this idea, I wanted to defend myself by mentioning that I STRONGLY stressed the need for an alternate method of steaming milk, if going with the single boiler option.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask, wouldn't the OP be better off with something like an Expobar Brewtus as opposed to say an Alexia w/PID and a separate milk frothing device? When totaled up they'd cost the same, but the Expobar would take up less space on the counter.

Two things I've learned from posting to this forum...
* First, you are all exceptional people (at least in internet land). Seriously, the feedback you've provided has been great.
* Second, I will never come between a home-barista forum poster and their coffee. I value my appendages too much.

I like the direction the posts have taken since @Marshall highlighted that 2 shots of 'decent' espresso mixed in 12 oz. of milk is really all I'm looking for. Lattes will be 99% of what my wife and I will drink using our new machine.

In the end, I will avoid "buyers remorse" if I can pull 2 shots of espresso and steam 12 oz. of milk within, both of good quality (not necessarily great quality) within 3 or 4 minutes and REPEAT. All for under $1,500.

rharlow wrote:In the end, I will avoid "buyers remorse" if I can pull 2 shots of espresso and steam 12 oz. of milk within, both of good quality (not necessarily great quality) within 3 or 4 minutes and REPEAT. All for under $1,500.

Here is the trouble with the internet: We all have different tastes for what is "good" and "great." Marshall suggests you won't notice much in 12 oz. of milk--to the extent that he suggests stale coffee (pods). I have never tried pod lattés, so I can't say for sure. However, true story: I was in St. Louis, and I entered the sham of a coffee shop that is Kayak's Coffee. From the window, I had seen that they had a LM Linea, and a LM Swift. This was encouraging to me (these are nice machines, usually too expensive for people that don't know poop from coffee beans), so I went in to order. I looked at the menu, and this was the first sign of something horridly awry: The cappuccino came in 3 sizes: 12 oz, 16 oz, and 20 oz. Hmm, that's funny, none of those sizes corresponds to a cappuccino. Well, I don't know why I did it, but I ordered a small cappuccino. What I received was a 12 oz. drink in a to go cup (to hide the crap foam job). I drank it, and I guess at first it didn't make me wish death upon myself, but by a few more sips I was feeling ill. This was some of the worst coffee I could remember! In 12 oz. of milk! By this time, my friends and I had driven to the other side of Washington University, and we were at Kaldi's Coffee shop. I poured the remainder of my 12 oz. of trash out into a drain, and threw my cup away, ashamed to bring it into the shop. We went in, and I got a real cappuccino (From a Robur, GB5, and a guy that had much more than just a clue), and it was excellent. My friend's latté was also superb.

I have no idea where your taste buds are, but I am with Mike: You aren't going to make good lattés with bad coffee. 12 oz. of milk will hide plenty of mistakes, but it's not going to hide stale coffee. Now, if you have a taste for bitter, black coffee, you may enjoy it. But it won't be what most of us would consider great coffee, and I can all but guarantee you that if you learned to make a decent shot of espresso from fresh, pro-roasted beans, with a good grinder like the Vario, and a decent espresso machine, you will enjoy your lattés more. They will be a lot better than pod lattés and pre-ground coffee lattés in the best way: they will actually have a candy taste to them, be that a "ripe fruit" milkshake, or a "chocolate hazelnut" milkshake, depending on the beans you use (note: they still do taste like coffee ). With pod or preground, you're going to get a bitter-coffee flavored milkshake. It won't overwhelm your palate the way a bad espresso would, but I don't think it will be anything like good after you've tried good lattés.

That's just my opinion, of course, take it for what you may. If your budget really is $1500, I would echo the suggestion for a HX machine--learn to flush till the sputtering stops + a few seconds before making your shot, and you will make perfectly good espresso to have a very nice latté. Occasionally, the stars will align, and you will make a great espresso, and it will still be awesome in a latté. I think the Vario grinder you were considering would also be a good choice for starters--it will be small and tidy, and highly usable.

uscfroadie wrote:I'm sorry, but I have to ask, wouldn't the OP be better off with something like an Expobar Brewtus as opposed to say an Alexia w/PID and a separate milk frothing device? When totalled up they'd cost the same, but the Expobar would take up less space on the counter.

That's purely a matter of taste. I would prefer the HX, myself, but I could see the convenience value of a separate frother, since it makes it trivially easy to get decent foam.

shadowfax wrote:Marshall suggests you won't notice much in 12 oz. of milk--to the extent that he suggests stale coffee (pods). I have never tried pod lattés, so I can't say for sure.

By using the single word "stale," without gradation, you have equated all pods with coffee left in a bag (or worse) for a month. In fact there is great variation among pods in the quality of coffee used, how they are structured, preserved and sealed. I suggested the Nespresso because it is one of the better systems, uses better coffee than most (actually some quite good coffees are available) and, particularly with milk and sweetener, passes most people's taste test. It is wildly popular in Europe. How stale does this look to you: http://www.airtightinteractive.com/news/?p=163?

shadowfax wrote:However, true story: I was in St. Louis, and I entered the sham of a coffee shop that is Kayak's Coffee. ... What I received was a 12 oz. drink in a to go cup (to hide the crap foam job).

Unfortunately, this tells us nothing about how the coffee would have tasted in a good foam job.

I was not suggesting the OP combine "stale coffee" with "crap foam." I was suggesting he use well-preserved coffee from one of the better capsule systems with naturally sweet, well-made foam. It's not what I would drink, but when people ask for advice, I try to advise them based on their own preferences, rather than mine.

Marshall: that's fair enough. The Nespresso looks like it'd be worth the look. I'd still say that an HX and a simple flush routine, while more work, would get you better espresso than any pod most of the time, with blips of awfulness (dialing in) and blips of greatness (stars align sort of thing). But, if you're into coffee, but not into it like us (many of us probably ought to consider spending some of our coffee money on a psychiatrist, right?), Nespresso may well be worth a look.

One advantage of Nespresso is that I'll bet any money that you can find a retailer that will let you sample the goods... I would suggest doing this before spending the money. I think they have these pod systems available to sample at my local Williams Sonoma... I'll have to check it out now.

I have served lattes, made on my Elektra Semiautomatica, using fresh home roasted beans and 1% milk - to the occasional guest that comes to my place - not coffee aficionado types - and I have seen their eyes widen, and then the comment - This is the best coffee I have ever had! They seem to mean it. This suggests to me that the "average" person has no trouble discerning the difference between stale second rate coffee drink, and a fresh decently made cup - if given the opportunity.

Howard

Amen