www.klatchroasting.com: USBC champion, voted 2009 'best micro-roaster'

Livia/Bezzera GFI Puzzler

Postby ddn on Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:37 pm

I've got a bit of a puzzler with my Livia.

During a descale, suddenly the GFI on a nearby outlet popped. Not wanting to risk anything, I continued debugging on the same outlet.

So I did some basic debugging, and if I unplugged the heating element from the power relay, I could plug the machine in and turn it on, everything worked. As soon as I plugged the heating element back in, as soon as main power came on (and thus heating element) it popped the GFI.

OK so I've got a bad heating element or I blew it. Took the whole machine apart, pulled the element and wired up 110 directly to the element. Plugged it into THE GFI outlet itself, and it heated right up. On a whim, I plugged the element into the nearby outlet that is on the same circuit as the popping GFI. *Pop*.

Any ideas? I've used this machine on the same outlet for 4 years.
ddn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby another_jim on Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:46 pm

Could be a pinhole leak that got exposed by the descale. Let it dry out, and it may work again.
User avatar
another_jim
Team HB
 
Posts: 7481
Joined: May 05, 2005
Location: Chicago
www.chriscoffee.com: quality & service, second to none
www.chriscoffee.com: quality & service, second to none

Postby ddn on Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:02 am

I'm perplexed as to why the element would work on the GFI outlet itself, but not on the outlet next to it.
ddn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Beezer on Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:51 pm

Pretty much the same thing happened to me recently after descaling my Quickmill Anita. Replacing the heating element fixed it.
Lock and load!
Beezer
 
Posts: 918
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Location: Fresno, CA

Postby another_jim on Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:12 pm

ddn wrote:I'm perplexed as to why the element would work on the GFI outlet itself, but not on the outlet next to it.


That happens a lot -- you are talking milliamp levels of leakages, well within the range of outlet to outlet variations in resistance. Personally, I think these kitchen & bathroom GFIs are a good idea, but poorly realized; since they generate thousands of false alarms for every real problem they show up. Mine pop at random, even when no grounded plugs are in them, every few months; and most people I know have the same experience.
User avatar
another_jim
Team HB
 
Posts: 7481
Joined: May 05, 2005
Location: Chicago

Postby ddn on Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:16 pm

That happens a lot -- you are talking milliamp levels of leakages, well within the range of outlet to outlet variations in resistance.


With that in mind, I'm going to take a chance and put it back together with the existing element. Worst case is I lose another week of espresso.
ddn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby duke-one on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:44 pm

Jim wrote:
"even when no grounded plugs are in them"
GFCI detect any stray current from the hot or neutral, therefore even a non-grounded piece of equipment can "pop" them.
KDM
duke-one
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Apr 13, 2007
Location: Berkeley California USA

Postby erics on Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:54 pm

David - why not "spring" for a GFCI outlet tester and see if any "problems" show up on either the GFCI outlet or the one that is causing it to trip?

Will the GFCI outlet trip when you hit the "test" button?
Not wanting to risk anything, I continued debugging on the same outlet.

When a GFCI trips, every outlet downstream of the tripped outlet on the same circuit is DEAD, so I'm curious as to how you could do this.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at erols dot com
User avatar
erics
 
Posts: 2985
Joined: Aug 09, 2005
Location: Silver Spring, MD

Postby ddn on Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:33 pm

The GFI outlet works as expected if I test/reset it. I was simply resetting that outlet every time the outlet next to it that I was actually using caused it to pop.

If another_jim is correct in saying that milliamps can trip it, then it sort of explains why a nearby outlet would trip it but not the outlet itself. There is going to be slightly more resistance on the further outlet, changing the electrical differential, no?
ddn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby another_jim on Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:14 pm

I have several GFIs in my kitchen, each with four outlets. A 2 prong electric light, with a 12 watt flourescent bulb, started tripping one of them when plugged into one of its outlets, but not the next one. An hour later, it was back to normal.

To my mind, anything so noise prone should not be a code mandated safety device. When I have a GFI trip, I assume it is the GFI malfunctioning, not an electrical hazard; since it is a 1 in 500 bet at least (i.e. that's how many trips I've had over the last ten years, none of which were ground faults). Ever hear the crying wolf story?
User avatar
another_jim
Team HB
 
Posts: 7481
Joined: May 05, 2005
Location: Chicago

Next

Return to Espresso Machines