There seems to be a fair amount of conflicting information out there about the brew boiler for the Spaz S1. Is it chromed brass? I have also heard it is chromed copper with brass end-plates. Is the interior of the boiler chromed as well?

Chrome plating does not sound like the greatest boiler interior. There are lots of posts from people with E61 machines who note that the chromed brass mushroom gets pretty badly scaled/oxidized on their machines. Then descaling flakes all the chrome off, so you have a soup of chrome flakes to clean out.

If the Spaz boiler interior is chromed, does it scale/oxidize and flake off in the same way?

Mark

The boilers are nickel electroplated brass (in and out) on the plumb-in version. The smaller steam boiler in the Mini is stainless steel.

Vendors web sites confirm this.

From what I have read, stainless steel has poor thermal conductivity and brass/copper used to be cheaper to manufacture. This is why most boilers are either brass or copper.

I am no chemist but water composition, pH and scale build up affect how the plating will stay on or not (see http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html). Descaling with acids to dissolve scale will also have an impact on the plating. Take a look at the many descaling threads with pictures and you will see this.

Scaling will occur according to water hardness and other conditions. I don't believe boiler materials themselves can prevent scale.

There are many threads on flaking: http://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Ahome-barista.com+nickel+plating+flaking

The La Spaz website says nothing about the boiler composition; Chris Coffee's website says nothing about it; the BrownBean (a vendor) says it is chromed copper; a search of the S1 users group suggests that it is nickel-plated brass. I don't disbelieve you, but can you share the vendors' websites where you found this information?

The link to a Google search on boiler flaking is not what I am looking for. If you have some knowledge of what happens to the plating on the interior of the brew boiler of the S1 over time or after descaling, I would appreciate hearing it.

Mark

The La Spaziale Part Catalog confirms nickel plating for the steam boiler (S1 plumb-in):
https://www.caffetech.com/media/upload/file/VIVALDI%202%20PARTS%20SCHEMATIC%20DWA%20AND%20MINI.pdf
7394 BOILER NICHELATO
7392 FLANGIA BOILER DIAMETRO 120mm NICHELATA

But it doesn't state anything about the group boiler.

Bella Barista lists it as nickel plated brass:
http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/la-spaziale-vivaldi-s1-mk-11.asp
http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/la-spaziale-vivaldi-mini-mk-1.asp

The complete review they host also says nickel plating and the many included pictures shows the group boiler having the same look as the nickel plated steam boiler (same finish/reflectivity): http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/Laspaziales1vivaldiMKIIcloserlookv4.pdf (done by the author of http://coffeetime.wikidot.com)

The only info I've found indicating chrome plated brass comes from JohnB (http://www.home-barista.com/member/JohnB./) on either HB or s1cafe.com. You could check with him why is says so.

The best would be to check with Chris' Coffee, as they are the importer for the USA.

Concerning flaking, I have no first hand experience (yet) of the Vivaldi, only extensive perusing on the Internet for the past 6 months. You could ask s1cafe members if this is an issue or not. It is at least possible to completely strip the nickel (or chrome?) plating in the group boiler by using descalers:
http://s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1091 for a good picture of the inside, with only traces left of the original plating. Another thread with a picture here: http://s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=872

I had not seen the bellabarista review - thanks.

Surprisingly, there does not seem to be a lot about descaling on the s1 users forum. There are some references to green goopy-looking scale, and there are several open boilers that are missing some to most of the plating. This is my greatest concern about the S1. I'm pretty sure that using acid to descale will strip plating, and yet what options are there?

Other issues with the S1 seem fairly minor - tendency for the opv to drip; and a couple of people noted premature failure of the pump and motor due to leakage.

Mark

Commercial machines like the Vivaldi are expected to be fed with appropriate water in order to prevent scaling (water softener). In a commercial environment, descaling is just not practical: with the amount of water going through, scaling would happen too quickly and down time to descale is lost sales.

The question I would ask myself after seing those pictures is rather: "Where is that nickel now?" Did it went with the descaler (not really an issue) or did it go, slowly dissolved, in the brew water?

In the later case, and if it is a health concern, is it worse to drink nickel rather than copper or lead?

I would be more worried about copper and lead than I am about nickel. While scaling is bad for boiler/heaters, it can be considered good for health, as it lowers the contact surface between metal and water, reducing metal dissolution in water. On the contrary, water softening (along with heat) can augment metal dissolution, as in this example from the WHO: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2560737/

I have not done much research into this but HB threads on the subject are many and some patient Google Scholar research could help understand if this is a real issue or not.

Personally I would say that water coming from a HX tube or a small boiler (like one in a Vivaldi), drank in very small amounts (60ml at a time), is probably not an issue. One could ask questions though on frequently drinking tea mugs out of huge brass steam boilers on espresso machines.

But then I digress and we are far from your original flaking question.

Dogshot wrote:I had not seen the bellabarista review - thanks.

Surprisingly, there does not seem to be a lot about descaling on the s1 users forum. There are some references to green goopy-looking scale, and there are several open boilers that are missing some to most of the plating. This is my greatest concern about the S1. I'm pretty sure that using acid to descale will strip plating, and yet what options are there?

Other issues with the S1 seem fairly minor - tendency for the opv to drip; and a couple of people noted premature failure of the pump and motor due to leakage.

Mark

The boilers in those photos aren't "missing some to most of the plating". There was no bright shiney plating on the inside to come off. The outside has the shiny nickel or chrome plating. I descaled my boilers several times during the 2 years I owned my S1V2 & nothing ever came off the inside walls of the boilers except scale & mineral deposits. Since I had both boilers open it would have been pretty obvious if there was any plating peeling off.

In 3 years of reading the posts on the S1 forum I've never read of anyone having this issue so why are you so worried about it? The Vivaldi is not some generic E61 machine with poor quality Italian plating in areas that never should have been plated to begin with.

JohnB. wrote: The outside has the shiny nickel or chrome plating.

The new VII's no longer have plated steam boilers.

John,

So you're saying that the brew boiler is plated only on the outside? Is it the same for the steam boiler?

If the boiler is electroplated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating), how could they plate only part (the outside) of the piece?...

In the picture seen in http://s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1091, of the inside of the steam boiler, what is the metalic gray mark around the boiler outlet? Silver brazing?

[EDITED: First thought the picture in the above thread was from you]

JohnB. wrote:The boilers in those photos aren't "missing some to most of the plating". There was no bright shiney plating on the inside to come off. The outside has the shiny nickel or chrome plating. I descaled my boilers several times during the 2 years I owned my S1V2 & nothing ever came off the inside walls of the boilers except scale & mineral deposits. Since I had both boilers open it would have been pretty obvious if there was any plating peeling off.

In 3 years of reading the posts on the S1 forum I've never read of anyone having this issue so why are you so worried about it? The Vivaldi is not some generic E61 machine with poor quality Italian plating in areas that never should have been plated to begin with.

John, this is what is confusing me: This is a link to a post on the S1 forum that shows the interior of a steam boiler. It certainly looks like there is some plating there, and that it is only partly there.
http://s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?p=17655#p17655

This is off a 2004 S1, so perhaps things are different now. I'm not making any assumptions about the quality of the S1 - I just want to understand what the water that sits in the brew and steam boilers is contacting.

Mark