Long time lurker, first time poster.

For a long time I've been considering making the jump to a prosumer or commercial machine, but haven't been quite ready to spend the money. My significant other is completely on board and we're starting to thinking about going forward. I've mainly been focusing on E61 machines from QuickMill (Andreja and Anita from Chris Coffee for example), but I have also considered the La Spaziale Vivaldi II and Mini Vivaldi II as well.

As it just so happens, a friend of a friend owns a restaurant/bar that went out of business. He has a very lightly used La Spaziale New EK (2 group, 110v) that he wants to sell. Admittedly, I don't need a 2 group machine, but the price is outstanding. However, I can't really find much information about the New EK beyond the very basic specs. If anyone can offer links to reviews, detailed information, tips, complaints, etc. I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks!

-Organicveggie

I did a quick Google search and found some specs here:

http://www.coffeemanuk.co.uk/La-Spaziale-New-EK.html

Looks like a very nice machine to me. Assuming you have space for it and can plumb it in, I say go for it. Of course, you'll want to check it out thoroughly first to make sure everything works, it's not all scaled up, etc.

Remember that it's a HX machine and Vivaldi is DB. That means you'll have to keep the large boiler on all the time you want a cup.

A friend of mine has an Astoria 2 group HX (not at home). It has a 12L boiler, as compared to the La Spaziale's 10L boiler. They put out a LOT of heat. Ironically, the Astoria has a "cup warmer" switch to turn on an auxiliary heater for the cups... as if sitting on a boiler wasn't enough.

I don't know that I would be so concerned about electricity costs of the machine on its own. I would guess that if you left it on all the time it shouldn't cost too much more than $20-30/mo to run--on its own. But bear in mind that, if you have hot summers in WI, this thing could probably add at least $100 to your electricity bill between it and your AC system as they duke it out to control the temperature in your house. You might experience 5-10F differences between whatever room you put that in and the rest of the house if you don't have good air circulation.

On the other hand, in the cold months, a machine like that could help your central heating system a whole lot, making the cost of running it even less (from the electricity you save running your heater less).

Without getting all green about this, aren't we at a point where we have to consider issues of energy waste beyond the electric bill?

Did you want me to guess in kilowatt-hours instead? Energy usage costs money. Therefore, money is a fine measure of usage. Really, it's a conservative measure, in light of the rise of energy costs. If you lived in a cold climate, as I said, you could shift your heating somewhat to such a machine. If not, it will increase your energy bill. The highly obvious upshot of that statement is the increased energy usage that goes with that. Be green, be blue... rising energy costs will make everyone more environmentally conscious--so that's a plus.

Marshall wrote:Without getting all green about this, aren't we at a point where we have to consider issues of energy waste beyond the electric bill?

Xcel energy serves some or most of WI and well as Denver where rates are going up 10% and Natural
Gas is going up 58% this year. Xcel's energy mix consists mainly of coal and nuclear, and is moving
coal plants over to gas. They are also fairly big in wind (mainly in MN) and hydro (WI and Canada).

But renewables are a small part of their energy mix. Coal takes approx. 500,000 yrs to form. Natural
Gas, like oil, is closer to 1,000,000 years to form. Xcel is working on reducing their emissions,
including Mercury, Sulfur, and Uranium from the coal power plants.

Xcel is working with other power producers to install new HV lines, which will cost $400M. That should
help reduce the occurrences of blackouts, but will not reduce the need to reduce overall energy consumption.

Bob


bob

shadowfax wrote:Did you want me to guess in kilowatt-hours instead? Energy usage costs money. Therefore, money is a fine measure of usage.

I was thinking of the many Prius-driving people who buy high-end kitchen equipment, and for whom electric costs are not an issue, but the environment is. If you say, "A commercial 2-group machine will waste $20 a month," they'll say "So what?" But, if you say it will kill three polar bears, you've sent a message they will hear.

Marshall wrote:Without getting all green about this, aren't we at a point where we have to consider issues of energy waste beyond the electric bill?

That's certainly something that concerns me... I personally wouldn't leave the machine on all the time. Of course, if it takes 30 minutes to warm up (I have no idea how long the New EK requires for warm-up), then I would be inclined to avoid buying the machine in the first place.

Any info on how the New EK comp ares to other HX machines? Does the article here (http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html) accurately reflect the New EK (even though it's not a E61)? In other words, should you still perform a cooling flush before pulling a shot?

What does the temperature curve look like?

Any thoughts on how I decide between a HX and a DB like the Viv 2? Or how I decide between different HX machines?

-Organicveggie

Organicveggie wrote:Any info on how...? Does the article...? Should you still...? What does...? How I decide between...? Or between...?

Only someone with significant experience with the New EK and some expensive diagnostic equipment can answer these questions, but I'll offer some educated guesses.

In general, commercial HX espresso machines have larger volume HXs and heavier groups, so they're less dependent upon cooling flushes for temperature management. For example, the Cimbali Junior heat exchanger has a fixed flush amount. Prosumer espresso machines can warm up in 30 minutes, but heavy commercial espresso machines typically need at least an hour before they're temperature stable. Reports of how much heat these beasts put out are not exaggerations. Uninsulated commercial machines like the La Marzocco GS3 and Elektra A3 raised our kitchen's ambient temperature by 10 degrees F. It wasn't bothersome in the winter, but irritating in the summer, especially to the lady of the house.

Choosing the "right" espresso machine for you starts with knowing your typical usage (how many drinks, what types) and then researching others' opinions. Consumer reviews are helpful, but be wary of those written by first-time owners in the throes of the "honeymoon" phase. In the absence of hands-on experience or the reports of others, I cannot advise you on how to make an informed decision.

Returning to the original question:

Organicveggie wrote:As it just so happens, a friend of a friend owns a restaurant/bar that went out of business. He has a very lightly used La Spaziale New EK (2 group, 110v) that he wants to sell. Admittedly, I don't need a 2 group machine, but the price is outstanding.

To each his own, but I would not want a monstrous two-group in my house, even if it were free, unless it was purely for the fun of it and in full anticipation of selling it after a couple months.