I would have no basis for judging Chris as an expert (but I will always pay attention to what he says). I only used this example because it were the first that came to mind. Other than that it would be hard to argue.

What isn't hard to argue is that a lot of espresso lore, myth and outright misconception grew out of untested opinions offered by trusted experts, whom I have no doubt meant well and genuinely believed what they said. Some might interpret Ken's comments as being dismissive of someone's expertise. But I don't see it that way. When any technology or methodology is purported to be "better" -- no matter how trusted the source -- we should treat it as untested opinion until rigorous, objective testing substantiates or refutes it.

Rick

Java Man wrote:What isn't hard to argue is that a lot of espresso lore, myth and outright misconception grew out of untested opinions offered by trusted experts, whom I have no doubt meant well and genuinely believed what they said. Some might interpret Ken's comments as being dismissive of someone's expertise. But I don't see it that way. When any technology or methodology is purported to be "better" -- no matter how trusted the source -- we should treat it as untested opinion until rigorous, objective testing substantiates or refutes it.

Rick

Even Jim Schulman, whose taste and opinions I have learned to trust deeply, comes up with an occasional bizarre opinion or idea that needs to be tossed. Although a person of consummate intelligence and taste, he is not immune to having brain farts, something in common he shares with the rest of humanity.

If we designate certain people as "experts," and the rest of us are reduced to being "followers," our love of coffee will not advance. Jim is someone who enjoys being challenged, and who readily admits he's wrong when a pet idea is shown to be wrong or incomplete. I have hundreds of emails from Jim establishing that fact, and that is one reason why I respect his knowledge of coffee as much as I do.

ken

Taste is too personal to debate. If Chris thinks it makes the best cup around, then I have no doubt that to him, it is the best cup around. If Ken thinks his Cimbali makes the best cup, then I am sure it does make the best cup based on Kens personal taste/flavor preference. I have no opinion on the GS3 since I have not used one, but I would like to do a blind cupping between it and my Elektra A3 and the LaMarzocco GS3.

A quick read-through on the Titan Grinder Project underscores the subjective nature of taste, 5 tasters and 5 different opinions.

cannonfodder wrote:Taste is too personal to debate. If Chris thinks it makes the best cup around, then I have no doubt that to him, it is the best cup around. If Ken thinks his Cimbali makes the best cup, then I am sure it does make the best cup based on Kens personal taste/flavor preference. I have no opinion on the GS3 since I have not used one, but I would like to do a blind cupping between it and my Elektra A3 and the LaMarzocco GS3.

A quick read-through on the Titan Grinder Project underscores the subjective nature of taste, 5 tasters and 5 different opinions.

There is a difference between presenting your taste as your taste, and as presenting your taste as reality and if someone else is different, then they are somehow deficient.

This is what I'd call presenting one's self as being an "arbiter" of taste.

There is the odd person out there who has "earned" this distinction, usually on the basis of decades of hard work. Julia Child, Robert Parker, Alice Waters, Jancis Robinson, Charlie Trotter, Paul Bocuse (not an exhaustive list by any means) --- love them or hate them, they deserve your respect. Does Mr. Tacy's name belong on this list? I'll let you answer that one.

One doesn't need to go much further than writing style or even the "signature" chosen to accompany one's posts, to wit:

""Taste is the only morality. Tell me what you like, and I'll tell you what you are." - John Ruskin"

Case rested.

ken

cannonfodder wrote:Taste is too personal to debate. If Chris thinks it makes the best cup around, then I have no doubt that to him, it is the best cup around. If Ken thinks his Cimbali makes the best cup, then I am sure it does make the best cup based on Kens personal taste/flavor preference. I have no opinion on the GS3 since I have not used one, but I would like to do a blind cupping between it and my Elektra A3 and the LaMarzocco GS3.

A quick read-through on the Titan Grinder Project underscores the subjective nature of taste, 5 tasters and 5 different opinions.

Of course, several people can taste the same selection of food/beverage samples and have different preferences. But I don't pay much attention to anyone's "I like this one best" unless the tasting is done "blind" and in the same tasting session. When the taster knows which sample is which, or when the samples are tasted at different times, the observation of "best" is not trustworthy, no matter how well-intended the taster.

Rick

This morning I woke up by an unusual sound from my kitchen. Then I remembered, smiled and took an hour more

The day before yesterday I took delivery of my GS/3. Because of the holidays I had to setup the machine myself.
Rosemary almost got me worried but the only problem I've had so far, is the first character of the user-configurable name-field on the display which insist on being an "L".

One other thing though. I don't like to fuel the fire, but I kind of owe it to you all:


The software is version 1.11 and I got all the updates Teme mentioned on the first page in this thread, except for the rubber seal surrounding the group-head neck and my cup-tray is one with the early layout (I find the new one better styled).

Now (in daylight at least) one just look under the machine to have an indication on the water level

Ken Fox wrote:There is the odd person out there who has "earned" this distinction, usually on the basis of decades of hard work. Julia Child, Robert Parker, Alice Waters, Jancis Robinson, Charlie Trotter, Paul Bocuse (not an exhaustive list by any means) --- love them or hate them, they deserve your respect. Does Mr. Tacy's name belong on this list? I'll let you answer that one.

I have gone to many coffee shops in my travels, and many that we here see as meccas. I made my pilgrimage to Blue Bottle when I was in San Francisco, twenty dollars in a cab to get three drinks and a pound of coffee before the show; and Barefoot on my way (well, out of my way, really) back to the desert. I've ridden the bicycle out to Nick's place in DC, and stopped the truck in NC, pedaled up Capitol Hill and down Pike to get in as many shops as I could while in Seattle. I've had cups from qualified barista that I really like, and cups from heroes that, while I recognised the quality of the pull, and of the coffee, I didn't really like it that much.
I always got a kick out of the two foremost experts on what moves are good having a thumbs up/thumbs down review of the same movie. This was always the reminder for me when I got the word from on high, of some 'expert' in taste.

We're losing track of the empirical verities. There are some things most everyone who likes coffee agrees on. For instance, Starbucks espresso tastes burnt. When we all agree, the conclusion is not subjective, although the process by which it's derived may be. We also agree that bad beans and/or a bad roast will never make a good cup of coffee.

We're losing sight of what most of us agree that the combination of equipment and technique should produce. The taster should be able to identify and enjoy each specific flavor and aromatic note within the coffee as well as judging their relative weight, and appreciating the harmony of the gestalt. Most of us agree that for a given coffee this occurs when the qualities of "sweetness" and "mouth feel" are most enhanced.

Most of us agree that there is a preferred intrashot temperature profile for a given mix/roast. With my Livia, I don't play with the stat to establish the ideal temp for a blend, I look for blends that suit the brew temp. The GS3 promises to simplify setting that profile and allowing the user to enjoy a wide variety of blends. We expect it to do a better job than other PID dual boilers on the market because the rest of the machine is better.

Since there is so much general agreement I don't agree that all of this is simply "a matter of taste." If it was, there'd be any number of machines on our "best of the best" lists. Instead we all have the same machines.

Returning to the GS3: What it doesn't do is figure out the best temperature for any given blend on any given day of the roast age. Because of this (in my current state of complete lack of experience with a GS3), I think Ken Fox's arguments come closest to my expectation. Unless and until it makes finding the right temperature more science than art, I'd just as soon skip the PID display. You gotta like the way a Victoria Arduino Venus looks. On that we can generally agree.

Rich

Jacob wrote:One other thing though. I don't like to fuel the fire, but I kind of owe it to you all:

In addition to Rosemary's and now Jacob's report, I have also heard (and seen an image) of a third incident of this kind. I appreciate that this is not an isolated incident then. Nevertheless, this should be considered an item in isolation (not affecting usability) and not linked to the overall frustration of delays due to regulatory approvals IMO.

Jacob wrote:my cup-tray is one with the early layout (I find the new one better styled).

The old design is a lot sturdier and fits better in my experience (I have seen and tried both), but I agree that the new one is more integrated to the overall design.

Jacob wrote:Now (in daylight at least) one just look under the machine to have an indication on the water level

The new reservoir is of a much better finish than the one that came with the first machines originally and it also fits better (is less sensitive). I have been lead to understand that everyone should be receiving the new version of the reservoir...

Br,
Teme